Southwark Plans for Camberwell Old & New Cemeteries.

[oddlycurious]

Having spent two years worrying about trees to now change tack and decide actually they're concerned about (specifically orthodox) muslim and jewish burial provision is a bit disingenuous.

[Blanche Cameron]

oddlycurious Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Right now, perhaps half of all the burial demand

> in the borough cannot be met in Southwark's

> cemeteries. Orthodox or strict Muslims and Jews

> need dedicated, consecrated cemeteries.

> If you don't have the numbers how can you say half

> the demand is not being met?

Southwark has not carried out a Burial Needs Assessment as recommended by Harriet Harman so no one knows.

We calculate that Southwark?s 30,000 or so Muslim and Jewish residents make up around 10% of the borough?s population but around a third of residents who require burial. In addition, many families wanting burial of other faiths don't want to buried on top of the remains of the dead.

Southwark admits its not providing burial fairly. Its own 2012 Cemetery Strategy states:

?The shortage of burial space has meant that cemetery space allocated for Muslim burials has been exhausted. This means that residents observing Islamic funeral rites and requiring graves prepared in adherence to Islamic law, must seek internment [sic] outside of the borough.?

We wrote a statement today about this:

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/death-taxes-and-discrimination/4593668565

It would be a shame to continue destroying the natural beauty, heritage, and family history of the cemeteries for a provision that may be illegal and eventually stopped.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are against digging up or mounding over graves - so called 'reuse' and 'reclamation'.

We are against the destruction of memorials and monuments of the dead.

We are against cutting down trees and undergrowth to provide burial space.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Blanche Cameron]

BURIAL DISCRIMINATION:

Today, we wrote to the Diocese of Southwark and asked if they were aware of Southwark?s discriminatory burial policy and if so, do they condone it.

Southwark has never provided burial for most Muslim and Jewish residents who require certain funeral rites as part of the practice of their faith in death - such as not being buried in or over other people?s graves, burial in a specific, segregated cemetery and so on. Southwark Council is subsidising burial for Christians - in this time of cutbacks. The Council has applied to the Diocese of Southwark for permission for burial developments that continue the discrimination.

Letter to Diocese http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/diocese-reject-discrimination/4593678140

Illegal religious discrimination is just one reason why Southwark's burial plans are doomed and must be stopped now.

RYEDALE FLOOD RISK

It has been raining. Southwark has confirmed that they cannot say if current burial design won?t lead to homes being flooded. Vegetation has been removed from the Underhill/Ryedale area before flood control measure were even designed, let alone implemented.

http://savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/council-hasnt-done-soil-tests/4593517787

UPDATE:

1. We are still waiting for Southwark to apply for planning permission for the Old Nursery Site in the Honor Oak Park Nature Corridor, next to Honor Oak Park station. Surely there are better things to do with this site than a few years of burial plots?

2. We are still waiting for the Church of England, Diocese of Southwark, to give the go-ahead for Southwark to continue work on the Underhill/Ryedale site and on One Tree Hill, where up to 60 trees will be cut down for 145.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are against digging up or mounding over graves - so called 'reuse' and 'reclamation'.

We are against the destruction of memorials and monuments of the dead.

We are against cutting down trees and undergrowth to provide burial space.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

The ONLY interest the Diocese has in municipal cemeteries is the consecrated areas - consecrated for Christian Burial. The Diocese has no interest in the burial requirements of other faiths - it may have (I would hope it did have) a general bias against discrimination, where that can be shown, but it has no obligation to pursue such interests on behalf of others (though I am sure it would support such claims). As the pressure group is actually against the continuance of ANY burials in the municipal cemeteries the praying in aid of other faiths (whose burials they would also wish to block) is bizarre - maybe they wish to be equal opportunity ban-ers - sad they can only work to ban Christian burial and not Jewish or Islamic burials as well. [Or the funerals of those of no faith, but who have some cultural leanings towards burial].

[Siduhe]

Blanche, can you help answer the question that we raised the last time this argument came up - and didn't get a clear answer to?

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1574548,1575018 (scroll down page)

As I understand your group's position - you oppose all burials on the COC and other sites? So how is it an argument to say that you object to the plans because they discriminate in relation to burials of other faiths? If you wanted to argue for more burial provision I would get it, but I do think it is odd and potentially misleading to focus on this discrimination argument when you actually want to stop all burials of any kind on the sites. If you want people to support your campaign on the basis of what you think is discrimination, I think you should make it clear that the group opposes all burials of any kind whether Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

[dbboy]

Are you in favour of it being used for its primary purpose as a cemetery until it is Full?

[oddlycurious]

Siduhe - The only reason they're remotely bothered about Jewish and Muslim burials is the hope that a bigger boy will come along and shout at the council. I'd imagine if it was decided that all the land in question was to be turned over for full orthodox Jewish burial (ignoring the practicalities of this) SSW would not be happy. They don't want anyone doing anything to their "woods".

[Blanche Cameron]

Religious discrimination is just one reason why Southwark's burial project cannot go ahead. In July 2016 we gave ten reasons why it is not ? and never can be ? viable.

These inclued: Our green spaces are too valuable to be used for burial plots. Burial over the dead is not an option for many. History and heritage of those buried and their families must be respected and preserved.

As a campaign, we are not against families using plots they already own for addional interments.

10 Reasons: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/inner-city-burial-not-viable/4592656246

The cemeteries are full.

The playing fields, playground, and allotments have proven they are more valuable as they are than new burial plots. The only two other areas where there are no graves are the land next to the Honor Oak Park station and a small wooded area on the side of One Tree Hill. These two sites can provide a maximum of five years of burials. After that graves in other areas will have to be mounded over and dug up.

As our website says "We are fighting to save the Camberwell Cemeteries as Nature Reserves with respect for the dead and their memorials, and woods, green spaces and nature for the living."

These are cemeteries and we believe the dead (and the cemeteries they are in) should be left to rest in peace.

If you have a question, please feel free to email me.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

Southwark Council is subsidising burial for Christians - in this time cutbacks.

Actually, in so far as their very high charges can be taken as a subsidy, they are 'subsidising' burial for any prepared to be buried in municipal cemeteries - which does, certainly, include those of the Christian faith (although the grave orientations are based on topology, not East/ West orientations - so unacceptable to some) but also those of no faith, and those of other faiths who are not 'fundamental' in their beliefs. Apart from those faiths who require exclusive burial (won't be buried in the same enclosures as other faiths) there is also an issue about burial speeds, both Islam and Judaism looking for very quick interment - which is less readily deliverable in a municipal cemetery. There is NO discrimination as regards burial in Southwark - but people of some faiths will chose not to be buried there because their specific needs cannot be met. The people then exercising discrimination are those not choosing to be buried - because the choice is theirs. Equally it should be noted that public (in the open air) cremation (part of Hindu death rites) is outlawed across the UK (but was exceptionally allowed during the first war for Indian war dead).

[Blanche Cameron]

MEETING

Tonight 730 we are meeting at the Herne Tavern, 2 Forest Hill Road, London SE22 0RR. Everyone welcome.

We will be discussing the upcoming gathering of families with loved ones buried in the cemeteries and are concerned that their family graves will be obliterated by new burial plots and paths. Also the impending planning applications for the three acres next to Honor Oak Park Station in the Honor Oak Nature Corridor.

SOUTHWARK SUBSIDISES BURIAL

Southwark Council quotes ?5.2Million as the total cost of its ?sustainable? burial strategy to create approximately 5000 burial plots. Those figures are over a half-decade old. Undoubtedy they will have to spend more money for fewer burial plots - probably as few as 2000. And that is just in preparing the ground for burial. They don't feel the need to give anyone the current figures.

'Sustainable' means having enough burial plots now to get to the point where they can begin digging up the dead.

Subsidies per plot are at least ?1,000 and quite possibly ?3,000 or more in real terms. This doesn't include, for instance, the value of the land.

You can read about the blank cheque given to burial in this time of cutbacks here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/blank-cheque-burial-service/4593627679

RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION:

Southwark knows thousands of their residents have specific burial needs that Southwark don?t and won?t serve. Southwark is not planning to provide burial for the majority of these residents ? yet they are taking their taxes.

You can read here about the religious discrimination that will eventually stop this horrific project: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/death-taxes-and-discrimination/4593668565

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[oddlycurious]

Hello Blanche - just so we're all clear, are you calling for the council to provide extra burial space for orthodox muslim and jewish burials in the borough? You seem to be avoiding a yes or no answer.

[Penguin68]

No, it is clear that ssw wants no more burials in Southwark at all, ever - they want burials to be pushed miles out into the outer boroughs or beyond - (so very convenient for Southwark residents who want to visit their loved one's graves to mourn). The Jewish and Muslim ploy is a smokescreen to cause more delay - hopefully (for them) so that the weight of public opinion will swing to them. Southwark provides (albeit limited) burial space for anyone who wishes to use it and can afford the fees - they wish to provide more by implementing re-use strategies for open cemeteries. There is no point of discrimination here at all. Some religious sectaries may chose to opt out - but that is their choice.

[Blanche Cameron]

oddlycurious Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hello Blanche - just so we're all clear, are you

> calling for the council to provide extra burial

> space for orthodox muslim and jewish burials in

> the borough? You seem to be avoiding a yes or no

> answer.

Religious discrimination is just one more reason why Southwark must stop its misguided, wasteful, destructive and disrespectful burial project now. There is no room in the Borough to meet the demands of all the residents that require burial and Southwark should look elsewhere.

10 reasons for stopping the burial project: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/inner-city-burial-not-viable/4592656246

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[Penguin68]

There is no room in the Borough to meet the demands of all the residents that require burial and Southwark should look elsewhere.

And the council cannot house everyone, or provide social care for everyone in borough, and therefore should stop doing it for anyone in borough.

Just to make it clear - the Council's plans of re-use will extend the use-able lives of the active cemeteries significantly - it may be that a more general move to cremation by those without religious or cultural sensibilities may help reduce demand - even where ashes are still buried with memorials - but the aims of this group have always been to turn cemeteries into parkland (with no clear plans, indeed no plans at all for how the costs of management of this parkland is to be met). Indeed they have in the past recommended the wilding of all cemeteries (as the areas now being worked on were inadvertently wilded) - which would certainly mean that quite quickly existing graves and memorials could not be viewed or visited.

Despite their apparent support for 'respect' and minorities these people are simply anti-cemetery. That is their objective and plan, and to confuse their obfuscations and half truths with any actual care for either the living or the memories of the dead is to fall into the traps they have been digging.

[Sue]

Yep.

[oddlycurious]

Hello again... it's a yes or no question that you seem to avoiding:

Do SSW support an increase in burial provision for all faiths in the borough?

[oddlycurious]

If the answer is no it's offensive to *everyone* to invoke people's faith to further your cause and you should really find a different angle.

[treehugger]

I'm also interested in the answer to this, Blanche, as I am confused by your statements and what you really mean. You seem a little less than transparent.

[EDAus]

I have been unable to find any evidence that the council has a policy of engaging in direct discrimination against any religious groups i.e. refusing burials to any particular religious group or residents.

It could be argued that the council's current policy of reusing certain sections of the cemetery is indirect discrimination as it fails to accommodate the needs of some religious residents i.e. Muslim or Jewish residents.

The council would be within their rights to argue the defence of 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' - the only way in which they can continue to provide burial services to the community, of which their is clear evidence of demand, is to use all the available resources at their disposal i.e. reuse of the land within the existing cemetery.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission supplies the following guidance on religious discrimination (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/religion-or-belief-discrimination):

"Direct discrimination

This happens when someone treats you worse than another person in a similar situation because of your religion or belief. For example, a bank refuses you a loan because you're Jewish.

Discrimination can occur even where both the discriminator and the person being discriminated against hold the same religious or philosophical belief. For example a Hindu businessman interviews two women for a job as his personal assistant. One is Hindu and the other is not religious. The Hindu woman is the best candidate at interview but he gives the job to the other woman because he thinks his clients (who are mainly Christian or have no religion or belief) will prefer it. This is direct discrimination because of religion or belief.

Indirect discrimination

Indirect discrimination happens when an organisation has a particular policy or way of working that applies to everyone but which puts you at a disadvantage because of your religion or belief. For example, you are Jewish and you finish early on Fridays in order to observe the Sabbath. Your manager has changed the weekly team meetings from Wednesday afternoons to Friday afternoons and you are therefore often absent.

Indirect religion or belief discrimination can be permitted but the organisation or employer must be able to show that the policy or way of working is necessary for the way the business operates. This is known as objective justification.

Objective Justification

To rely on the 'objective justification' defence, the employer or service provider or other organisation must show that its policy (or age-based rule) was for a good reason ? that is, 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'.

Some key points are:

The aim must be a real, objective consideration, and not in itself discriminatory. For example, ensuring the health and safety of others would be a legitimate aim.

If the aim is simply to reduce costs because it is cheaper to discriminate, this will not be legitimate.

Working out whether the means is ?proportionate? is a balancing exercise. Does the importance of the aim outweigh any discriminatory effects of the unfavourable treatment?

There must be no alternative measures available that would meet the aim without too much difficulty and would avoid such a discriminatory effect. If proportionate alternative steps could have been taken, the policy (or age-based rule) is unlikely to be justified."

[Blanche Cameron]

EDAus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It could be argued that the council's current

> policy of reusing certain sections of the cemetery

> is indirect discrimination as it fails to

> accommodate the needs of some religious residents

> i.e. Muslim or Jewish residents.

>

> The council would be within their rights to argue

> the defence of 'a proportionate means of achieving

> a legitimate aim' - the only way in which they can

> continue to provide burial services to the

> community, of which their is clear evidence of

> demand, is to use all the available resources at

> their disposal i.e. reuse of the land within the

> existing cemetery.

Most inner London boroughs do not provide burial within their borough. Providing burial within one's borough is not a statutory service. Southwark cannot serve between one third and one half of those who require burial in the borough because of their faith.

Religous discrimination, whether direct or indirect, is another reason why burial in Southwark must stop. Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries should become Memorial Park Nature Reserves.

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.

[JoeLeg]

Religious discrimination is a reason you've grasped on to in order to try and achieve your aims because nothing else has worked.

You're a bunch of over-zealous, unpleasant people who ridicule those that disagree with you and get openly aggressive to their face when they question you - how is Lewis these days? Sill shouting at people who challenge his moral high horse?

Your only going down the anti-discrimination route because you've had no success anywhere else, it's grasping at straws and showing that you think you're total anti-burial stance in Southwark should override anyone else's wishes. You dodge questions, are evasive when challenged and openly hostile in person. Makes me think you have no interest in a dissenting view, and frankly I think it's a waste of time when there's far better things to be fighting Southwark council over.

But then what was it Lewis said to me? Oh yes, that I'm a "waste of space because I haven't lifted a finger to help the cemeteries". Actually he said worse as well, but I'm not going to repeat it here.

[Penguin68]

Re discrimination - it is worth noting that restaurants that do not provide a kosher kitchen, or supply only (or any) halal meat are not thus guilty of discrimination - it is the choice of the orthodox etc. whether to eat there or not. So I suspect that Southwark not providing religiously specific (and often exclusive) options are also not guilty thereby of discrimination, so long as they do not stop anyone of a particular race or religion making use of the facilities they do offer. If there was a problem of under-use of the cemeteries it might be sensible (in marketing terms) to extend take-up by offering specific religious 'products' - but there isn't.

[taper]

I'm in the cemetery two or three days a week. Walking through mainly, sometimes with my dog in the wooded area in the north-east corner and the field that backs onto Ryedale.

Two things strike me.

First, the wooded area and field is worth preserving and managing pretty much as it is. It would be a real shame to see it levelled and re-used to any significant extent.

Second, the cemetery is a working cemetery, to the benefit of the people of Southwark. Funerals are held in there all the time. And at the weekend there are always individuals and families visiting graves of loved-ones. This is genuinely moving and clearly important to local people. So it would be hugely remiss of Southwark not to look at how to extend the active life of this cemetery, balanced with the need to preserve the best of the old.

I believe this is the position of the other friends group, which Lewis and co seemed to have usurped (Camberwell Cemeteries Working Group). We should support them.

[nxjen]

Yes indeed. Here is a link to their website. http://ccwgroup.weebly.com/ I believe they are in discussion with the Council.

[Blanche Cameron]

NEWS:

CHURCH RULING BACKS DESTRUCTION OF INNER CITY WOODS AND GRAVES

As expected, the Diocese of Southwark retrospectively approved Southwark Council cutting down acres of woods in the Camberwell Cemeteries to mound over thousands of graves and cut down woods on One Tree Hill for inner city burial plots.

The Diocese ignored more than 900 written objections, with just 3 letters in support of Southwark?s destructive schemes.

Below, in part, is what the Diocese of Southwark has decided to support:

Destruction of acres of inner city woods and green space: Two acres of woods felled in Camberwell Old Cemetery. Dozens of trees to be cut down on One Tree Hill in Camberwell New Cemetery - including 10 English Oaks.

Disrespect and desecration of graves: Removal of family memorials, mounding over 48,000 graves including driving vehicle access roads over graves on One Tree Hill.

Digging up the dead: Mass exhumation will be acceptable even though no families have been consulted, paving the way for Southwark to dig up graves on an industrial scale.

http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/grave-reuse-unacceptable/4593658115

Burial over and in other people?s graves: Also perfectly acceptable, even though it is against many people?s faiths and personal wishes, including many Muslims, Jews and Christians.

Promoting systemic religious discrimination: Burial plots are unsuitable for a third of residents by faith, yet Southwark?s discriminatory burial service is not mentioned once in the eight page judgment, even though this was one of the major objection points to Southwark?s schemes.

Link to statement: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk/church-supports-project/4593686592

Blanche Cameron

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries / Save Southwark Woods Campaign

07731 304 966 [email protected]

[www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk]

Twitter: @southwarkwoods Facebook: Save Southwark Woods

Friends of Camberwell Cemeteries was founded as Save Southwark Woods in January 2015 to stop the destruction of the woods and graves of Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.

We are for maintaining recreational activities already taking place on cemetery grounds, such as the Recreation Ground and the Allotments.

We are for preserving the cemeteries as Memorial Park Nature Reserves, like Nunhead or Highgate Cemeteries.