North Cross Road sub station - art installation

[bil]

Complain....complain...blah

Adding some fun and colour is always a good thing. Streets and walls are so grey or brown. Most graffiti is not pleasant to look at and adds no character. Unfortunately we don't have a Banksy and I agree that design via excel is very bizarre. I have given my contribution (also via excel -i found the squares restrictive; having said that but I am not creative in that way)

Tried to say (North x, east dulwich) basically :-O

[Sue]

bil Wrote:

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> >

> Adding some fun and colour is always a good thing.

>

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Nope. Definitely not. Not if it's inappropriate to the place it's added to.

[bil]

I should never say always!

but is it inappropriate in this case?

Colour usually uplifts peoples mood e.g. colourful flowers, clothes, carnival. As long as it is not offensive or detrimental or worse than what was there before, will it harm anyone?

or shall we just have useless graffiti and repeated removal?

I think the competition to get designs is a good idea

[Sue]

bil Wrote:

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> As long as it is not

> offensive or detrimental or worse than what was

> there before, will it harm anyone?

>

> xxxxxxxxxxxx

Harshly coloured vinyl "flowers" are offensive to me, and in my opinion worse than the quite inoffensive and in fact quite nice plain brick wall which is there at the moment!

And detrimental to this particular street environment - in my opinion.

Well it may not physically harm anyone, but judging by what's on the Excel spread sheet, it is likely to raise my blood pressure every time I pass it, and darken my day considerably :-$

[kford]

Spend the money on installing a large one of these:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8461652.stm

They're only made down the road too.

[Horsebox]

What about local stencil/vinyl/sticker fiend D-Face?

Commission him to do something, if he'll come out of hiding.

[evelknievel]

Would Battersea Power station look better if it had big coloured squares painted on it? Nope.

The feature of this wall is in the architecture of the wall itself, the raised blocks are already there, it isn't just a plain wall. Are we so numb that we can't see that without the blocks thrusting themselves at us.

If the coloured squares idea has merit for me, it's as a temporary, changeable, and ultimately reversible installation. That way you could do away with it altogether, or you could change it from time to time to reflect specific events or simply for variety.

Far as graffiti goes I'm not an expert but I'm not sure a few coloured bloacks would make this wall any less graffiti friendly (doesn't strike me as a particularly graffiti friendly wall anyway) and besides, I don't remember ever seeing any on it.

[Otto]

There is a brilliant graffiti project on Bethnal Green road that has been really fantastic for the community. I think graffiti comes in different forms - its origin as a tagging mechanism has evolved into many other things - I will try to dig up some more "evidence" that would support a graffiti wall as I hate to see all graffiti labeled as "bad" across the board. I think some kind of art project there is a great idea, but, as art is such a subjective thing, it will certainly be a can of worms. The idea of graffiti is a fairly on-trend idea that reflects the character of the neighborhood.

The graffiti that is allowed to happen at the Southbank where the skateboarders are is source of pleasure for many a passerby, especially young children...

Here is the Bethnal Green link -

http://www.richmix.org.uk/downloads/press/spring09/RM_PR_GrafittiProject.pdf

and here is a link to the website of one of the artists -

http://www.jonhammer.com/blog/2009/04/10/90-m-graff-wall-bethnal-green-road/#more-517

Here is a link to a contemporary artist that does art on walls in a graffiti-derived way - (disclosure: friend of mine) - he is really worth a look at to see how graffiti can be raised up a level - he has been commissioned by Bloomberg, MOMA NY and other fine establishments...

http://www.markdeanveca.com/

Best, Otto

[sophiesofa]

I personally do not like graffiti - even the really beautifully designed and painted kind and I think it would look very out of place in this location. Whatever goes there would definitely have to be easily removable because I still think the wall is a lovely wall just as it is.

[Otto]

yes - art is subjective - it is not my favorite either, but, I just felt it needed defending as it is an art form back on the ascendent - and a valid one that does not necessarily mean "crime". JBarber's comment just struck me as one that needed a bit of enlightenment, and, he did ask to be enlightened.

This years Turner Prize winner, Richard Wright really is a kind of Graffiti artist in a sense as well...with a different kind of aesthetic.

to continue the Devil's Advocate strain......a Banksy would certainly put ED on the (progressive) map and generate loads of press...

[ruffers]

evelknievel Wrote:

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>

>

> If the coloured squares idea has merit for me,

> it's as a temporary, changeable, and ultimately

> reversible installation. That way you could do

> away with it altogether, or you could change it

> from time to time to reflect specific events or

> simply for variety.

>

Agree with this, and it sounds like it might be the case as the submissions talk about vinyls as opposed to paint.

[sophiesofa]

Fair enough and I do think some graffiti artists are extremely talented although I'm not a fan of Banksy. Although that is irrelevant because I doubt he'll be popping up in ED anytime soon.

Edited to replace pooping with popping!

[evelknievel]

Doubt if he'll be doing that either Sophie...

[James Barber]

I'm really chuffed that so many people have now confirmed they'll be popping along to the consultation to give views.

Brilliant.

Really good to see so much thought about making East Dulwich even better - and an amazing amont of affection for a blank wall.

With regards to graffiti - read the attached and THEN tell me graffiti is what you think we need in East Dulwich.

[Sue]

Otto Wrote:

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> >

> to continue the Devil's Advocate strain......a

> Banksy would certainly put ED on the (progressive)

> map and generate loads of press...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Surely to deliberately plan for a Banksy is missing the point of Banksy?

[candj]

Yes, I read that thank you Mr Barber. I still don't agree about graffiti and its relation to crime, in the 21st century. We're not talking 1960s Harlem. Not to at least consider graffiti as a legitimate art form seems small-minded.

It's good to hold the meeting in the Palmerston as presumably those patrons will be the most greatly affected by this new art.

[evelknievel]

Well yes JBARBER but Criminology is a Social Science so there are probably equally credible studies out there that imply the opposite, or at least that this isn't the case. You know, the whole lay every Economist in the world end to end and they wouldn't reach a conclusion theory. Same applies across most if not all Social Sciences. Besides there's too much that we don't know about those experiments to make a judgement on whether the same 'givens' apply to North Cross Road.

That being said I don't personally favour a graffiti wall in this case because I think it would be incongruous to it's surroundings. But then I don't think there's any need for anything on this particular wall, much as I love public art done well, so perhaps my opinion is moot. Correct obviously but moot nonetheless...

[James Barber]

The snooker hall on Camberwell New Road has had banksy style graffiti. It has attracted loads of other 'traditional' graffiti on the building and the area and is costing a small fortune to sort out for the owners.

I can't see the wall owners, EDF electricity, wanting to take this risk. And why should they.

[James Barber]

Hi candj,

Glad you read the article. The research was done about 18 months ago, not in the 1980's. I'm sorry the research findings don't fit your views. I was surprised how conclusively the research demonstrated graffiti and unkept areas result in dramatically greater criminal tendancies.

Hi evilkenival,

Very easy to say you don't like the science. Please do find the contrary science you're convinced is out there and bring it to the forum. Until the science shows differently graffiti should be treated as the bad news its been proven to be.

[James Barber]

Hi kford,

Love the spiral clock.

[evelknievel]

Wasn't intending to have a go JBarber, but Social Scientists don't prove things, they present evidence to support theses.

The science to which you refer is not 'pure' science. Nobody would claim that, it's not a question of 'not liking the science'. I don't dismiss it out of hand, but I don't think it's fact.

Anyhooo, all a bit off topic, so...

[evelknievel]

...but since you asked, a quick google search reveals 'More Guns, Less Crime' Univ of Chicago Press, 2000. Which refutes the Broken Windows theory. Of course the author is a Social scientist so again not claiming any facts, just providing evidence to support his theory.

Besides the article you attached does miss the point somewhat - it's thesis is entirely based on peoples' behaviour on seeing 'a norm or rule being violated..'. An officially authorised graffiti wall, which was what was under discussion, wouldn't qualify as any kind of violation.

Blah blah, is it the weekend yet?

[candj]

Yes spot on evelknievel, the 'broken window' theory asserts that graffiti, litter and dilapidated buildings can lead to a rise in crime, based on behaviour, not graffiti alone. Anyhoo, I guess the council are taking this one article as gospel since there is no explanation behind the anti-graffiti stance just the same article being attached to the thread. I just don't like the blanket attitude that no graffiti is allowed when it is a legitimately recognised art form and perfectly acceptable.

This would make Keith Haring and Jean Michel Basquiat roll over in their graves. Have you ever heard of them Mr. Barber?

[Sue]

To be fair, Jean Michel Basquiat started off doing actual graffiti, as far as I know, before he became known as an "artist".

Don't get me wrong, I think he was brilliant, I went to an exhibition of his many years ago and I loved it, but that doesn't mean that all graffiti is a recognised art form.

Apologies if I've missed something crucial in previous posts.

[katie1997]

sophiesofa Wrote:

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> Yey someone else who likes the wall!

I like the wall too, so much so its never really bothered me the way it is. I might go take a 'special' look at it tomorrow though.....

However, thanks go to JBARBER (tu)for bringing the subject to this very useful local forum to instigate discussion and seek our views. Lets all meet in the Palmerston for the consultation :)-D

Opnions on public art are so subjective so whatever happens won't please everyone - though thats what makes the world such an interesting place.