Traffic on Peckham Rye / Forest Hill Road (fatal accident 26th Jan)

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

We can't be sure since we don't know the facts, but it is a fact that there was no provision (lights or police/lollipop official) for pedestrians to cross at the crossroads during the works.

[the-e-dealer]

Well I had no idea there was NO provision for pedestrians - I did notice during the snow people struggling to cross.

There should be an obligation on the contractor to make it safe for everybody. I'll ask my Traffic Friend to comment on this!

[Penguin68]

Loz wrote: But, can I ask a question? Is it standard practice for the driver in these incidents to be arrested? I am happy to stand corrected, but I believe that an 'arrest' has to be made so that an individual can be questioned under caution - this is a protection for the individual as it is for the police - in this case where there has been a fatality the possibility of prosecution must initially be high, until all the facts can be verified. It is important that questioning of the driver be conducted under PACE (and if under 'arrest' the driver would be entitled to legal representation). Being arrested and being charged are two very different conditions.

Clearly the driver is very likely to be in shock - so it is very important that he isn't led into saying things that he may later regret - expressing great sorrow may be understood to imply admitting responsibility - which he may not intend to do. "I am so sorry that I hit the child" can be read in two ways.

Luckily (what an awful use of that word) there were numbers of witnesses to this terrible event, so it is to be hoped that the truth of it will soon become apparent. The level to which the road works and consequent confusion were contributory factors (whilst not necessarily being the primary cause) will clearly be an issue for the coronor and any subsequent proceedings.

[skidmarks]

Owing to there being a fatality the police treat it has a crime scene therefore any parties involved get arrested.

I was on an advance road safety course last week. We discussed Highway Risk and Liability Claims. These are a few statements relating to the 1980s Highways Act which I think put things into perspective.

Road users are responsible for their own safety and have a duty to take the road as they find it.

The highway authority should avoid trapping reasonable users into danger.

A highway authority should not act irrationally.

Ok, the permanent signals were out including the pedestrian facilities, this was clear to all and not a trap.

Would it be rational to provide special facilities while these temporary works were undertaken? Would that mean every temporary works in London would require special treatment?

Yes a little girl has died and that is terrible, I am confident the police will investigate this matter and if anyone is at fault they will be prosecuted.

[Manda]

We don't know what the cause of the accident was and I am very, very sad that this has happened and offer my deepest and sincerest sympathies to the family of the little girl. I am also very angry because this junction is a known danger spot for anyone who uses it and this fact is consistently ignored by the local authority.

The roadworks created an even greater danger and this was brought to the attention of those responsible but still the poor conditions continued. I do think the temporary lights should have included a green light for pedestrians to cross by, mainly because they were hardly temporary (this has gone on for several weeks now). Only cars were included in the temporary filter system, there was no provision made for pedestrians to cross, they were left guessing as to when it was safe, with no actual right of way over cars at any time. This is wrong, pedestrians should not be left to take pot luck on a junction that was already very dangerous, not when the work takes several weeks, it is irresponsible.

[boothy]

I have recently written to Tessa Jowell, our MP about the roads in ED as I am concerned about the pedestrian crossing near my house on ED Grove ie.vehicles are driving too fast and fail to stop for pedestrians.

I am so very sad to hear that the little girl died yesterday- this is the type of tragedy that I wanted Ms Jowell to try to help prevent. Ms Jowell has written to Ms Barbara Selby at Southwark Transport Group who is meant to be responding back since the 14th December. If you want to email Tessa Jowell, her email is [email protected]

Maybe together we can lobby our MPs to prevent these terrible tragedies. My thoughts go to the girls loved ones.

[sweetgirl]

sadly it was a friend of a friends young sister, may her soul rest in peace. sleep tight little girl.

[PeckhamRose]

The next junction, at the junction of East Dulwich Road and Peckham Rye on the east side that leads on to Nunhead or turning right to go up towards Brockley. When this junction first got its traffic lights we were not a little irritated that there were no filter lights for the traffic turning right (as you're coming from East Dulwich). The 484 bus goes up there as well as a lot of traffic. I have written letters drawn maps attended Community Councils, written to TfL and my MP. My Councillors also agreed the point.

But nothing has ever been done. I have tried so hard. Turning right up that junction is a complete nightmare and on other threads I have made the points that the fact the council close off roads forcing more and more traffic on to fewer and fewer roads, and then not making adequate traffic lighting systems to allow for safe passage of the resulting extra traffic, makes for us road users to take risks and turns us in to criminals when it becomes clear as we sit there that the only way we'll get home is by turning right on a red light.

No-one accepted these points, there are long dead flowers on a light stand there although I don't know the situation behind that accident, and still it's a dangerous crossing. So what we still need on BOTH sets of traffic lights is right turn filter lights to go up Peckham Rye SE22 towards Forest Hill Road or up Peckham Rye SE15 towards Brockley.

And my thoughts go to the family of the girl and the driver of the vehicle and also the witnesses who may also be in shock.

[Nero]

It is all very well lamenting and writing to our MPs, but the only way to bring about fewer driver, passenger and pedestrian deaths and injuries is for everyone to slow down and pay more attention. Humps, filters, police cameras will go so far, but all they do anyway is try to encourage people to drive more slowly and more carefully. It will be impossible to prevent every accident, however.

[Huggers]

Those drivers of us 'in the know' who avoid the turn right junction by going down nigel road and then turn right across the semi roundabout on that lower part of Rye Lane, I believe are in for a nasty surprise with plans to make nigel road a no through/dead end. Bliss for residents I am sure, but extra pressure on that right hand junction on the rye.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Carrie]

I think the intention was to make Sternhall Lane a dead end and narrow the exit from Nigel Road so there could only be one lane of traffic exiting rather than 2 - which will only cause more traffic jams - when they did the consultation I suggested that a better idea would be to put a yellow box junction in front of Nigel Road so that the traffic queuing at the lights bat the Rye Lane/Heaton Road junction did not block the cars tryintg to turn right onto the lower part of Rye Lane. These road schemes can only be thought up by people who don't live in the locality - nice ideas on paper but an absolute nightmare in practice.

[Kalamiphile]

Doesn't make any difference to the drivers on Colyton Road, and theres a major school there. But even the parents drive fast and park on the zigzag lines. This is the 8o's generation, me first, me middle and me last.

ratty Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If it did take the life of a 10 year old to get

> these roadworks sorted then someone should fooking

> pay for this. This is so so sad.

>

> When is 20mph going to be introduced?? I thought

> it was to be the whole of Southwark?? Cannot come

> soon enough!

>

> RIP!

[the-e-dealer]

Excuse me I DRIVE ON COLYTON ROAD I do 20.

[Ladymuck]

How truly awful for everyone.

[the-e-dealer]

I Gather that Southwark visted the site TODAY. Bit late as the works were cleared away. I believe they should have not removed them. Anyone know who the Contractors were?

Hope the Police have Photos.

[jamster]

e-dealer - I saw people wearing Southwark Council jackets on the morning of the accident surveying the scene. There was also a police photographer in attendance.

[fatfightersforever]

Thanks Boothy, Just written to Tessa Jowell and James Barber in the hope that in this case at least something can be done to make this dreadful junction safer.

boothy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have recently written to Tessa Jowell, our MP

> about the roads in ED as I am concerned about the

> pedestrian crossing near my house on ED Grove

> ie.vehicles are driving too fast and fail to stop

> for pedestrians.

>

> I am so very sad to hear that the little girl died

> yesterday- this is the type of tragedy that I

> wanted Ms Jowell to try to help prevent. Ms

> Jowell has written to Ms Barbara Selby at

> Southwark Transport Group who is meant to be

> responding back since the 14th December. If you

> want to email Tessa Jowell, her email is

> [email protected]

>

> Maybe together we can lobby our MPs to prevent

> these terrible tragedies. My thoughts go to the

> girls loved ones.

[skidmarks]

So how would you make this junction safer?

I would like to see splitter island on all arms, like the one on the northern Peckham Rye arm so offside secondary signals can be provided. Especially important if large vehicles are in the nearside lane and you have two lanes on the approaches as is East Dulwich and Nunhead lane. Also splitter islands provide physical protection to waiting traffic to turn right, so you?re not sat in the middle of the junction with looking straight ahead at the on coming traffic.

It has controlled pedestrian crossing facilities on all arms with an all red stage. (no traffic moves while pedestrians cross). You cannot get any better than that.

Most right turns are banned except Nunhead Lane to Peckham Rye north for buses only. The only right turn possible for all vehicles is East Dulwich Road to Peckham Rye southbound. I can?t imagine there are many injury accidents associated with this movement probably lots of damage only (broken headlights and egos)

I would not consider pedestrian guardrailings, as the radii of the kerbs are tight and this could become a pinch point for cyclists where they become crushed between the railings and the turning vehicle (as what happened to that poor lady at Elephant and Castle last year). Also owing to the numbers of child pedestrians the railings would block the sight lines between drivers and small children (visi-rail railing would not work as the radii are too tight).

The eastbound approach has a falling gradient so approach speeds are fast. People on here are complaining that other drivers jump the lights reducing the opportunity for right turns. So I would suggest introducing splitter islands as I described earlier then look at installing red light running cameras with speed on green function on the Nunhead Lane and East Dulwich Road arms. This will catch drivers jumping the lights and also drivers speeding through the junction when the lights are green.

Anyone else got any ideas?

[Sandperson]

I cycle to work through the Aylesbury estate and there has been on going road works at the junction of Albany Rd and Thurlow St. This is a T junction, not a cross roads, but the temporary traffic lights (the kind they have set in red and white painted barrels of concrete) have pedestrian controls on them. This is a much less pedestrian traffic heavy junction than the one we are talking about so why weren't the same provisions made for peds here?

[skidmarks]

Sandperson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I cycle to work through the Aylesbury estate and

> there has been on going road works at the junction

> of Albany Rd and Thurlow St. This is a T junction,

> not a cross roads, but the temporary traffic

> lights (the kind they have set in red and white

> painted barrels of concrete) have pedestrian

> controls on them. This is a much less pedestrian

> traffic heavy junction than the one we are talking

> about so why weren't the same provisions made for

> peds here?

I know this junction. The signals are being modernised under the TfL?s rolling programme. All signals over 20 years old are being replaced like-for-like. Therefore it is possible for the contractor to stick the old ones in barrels while the new ones fitted.

The works on East Dulwich Road Peckham Rye were emergency gas works. The contractors turned off the fixed lights. Unfortunately portable traffic signals do not come with pedestrian crossing facilities.

[Sandperson]

Maybe they should.

[skidmarks]

Perhaps you?re right, perhaps someone should write to the manufacturers.

The trouble is every junction is different, it would be quite hard to take portable lights off the shelf to fit every situation out there. Then all the stuff you would need push buttons etc. It would be like installing a set of fixed traffic lights.

Actually you need to start right at the top with the Government. Pedestrian signals on portable traffic signals are not ?type approved? therefore would not be enforceable.

The regulations can be found here.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1997/19972400.htm

So you need to write to the Government to update this Statutory Instrument then get a manufacturer to make some.

[James Barber]

Hi the-e-dealer,

Standard operating procedure is for Southwark Council traffic officers to visit the scene of all KSI/dreadful crashes (Killed Seriously Injured).

They talk through with traffic Police the issues involved in a crash to see if any emergency actions are required.

This crash seems to have involved huge tipper lorry the type that has 4 steering wheels. This type are the prime killer of cyclists in London. They don't have side guards to stop things going under the back wheels. They're exempt from side guards on the basis they might go to rough building sites and the side guards get damaged. Ridiculous exemption which one major cement company ignores and has had side guards installed. I don't know if it would have made a difference during this crash but it might have helped.

I suspect a number of factors that individually would'nt be a problem but together have created this situation.

I hope the Police, Health&Safety Executive and Coroner do a really good investigation so real lessons are learnt.

[JDR]

I have a major concern with the people who have avoided the junction at peckham rye by going down Nigel Road. How do you get there? That would be off a well known major road onto a completely residential street that has more than enough traffic, speeders etc.... We have spped bumps, we just hear the cars bounce over them. I have three children under the age of 5 and the amount of traffic on our street has increased hugely since the peckham rye lights were out and even more now nigel road were out. Whatever shortcuts you take PLEASE stay below 20mph not 30! Its a residential area first, not your short cut (I more than appreciate the neccesity for short cuts, I drive with my job in a neighbouring borough so rely on the same solution).

I only beg that we don't tranfers the problem from A/B roads to back roads and more unexpected than ever accidents

[thebeard]

I am terribly upset by the death of this little girl, every time I drive past I just feel so terribly sad and tearful.

I am so angry as it appears the unnecessarily slow road works along with a ridiculous contra flow system were a major contributory factor.

The contra flow was stupidly dangerous over complicated and slow and frustrating for everyone.

It would have been far far simpler to have implemented a one way system going North towards Peckham along the west side of Peckham Rye and then back South along the East side of Peckham Rye. SIMPLE!

I find it laughable that many road works are carried out in the name of safety, yet little thought goes into the safety whilst the safety improvements are being carried out.

Though that is not the case here as it was gas works.

Remember the works at the goose green roundabout? It?s a miracle that no one was killed or seriously injured during that slow tortuous process.

Though there can be no justice for the unnecessary loss of this little girls life, making the roads safer in the future the very minimum the following actions would help us all in the future.

1. The contractor should be removed from the council contractor scheme for 12 months and fined for neglect. (Such tough action would in future force them to speed up works at such vital dangerous junctions or rethink their systems).

2. The council department responsible for the permits and road safety should be investigated, as there was a clear failure in their ability to permit a safe contra flow solution. No Question there was a complete common sense failure in this department. Maybe some heads should roll?