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messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by roywj September 16, 05:12PM

Lordship Lane is not in the CPZ area so will be unaffected. A lot of people commenting on the CPZ who do not actually live within the zone. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> first mate Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, well you might but it was always argued
> that
> > commuter parking was the central issue, this
> could
> > have been dealt with by the time limited
> option.
> > Goodness, we had tales of commuter stalkers in
> > cars harassing householders and all sorts. The
> > health centre and schools were never mentioned.
> > The all day CPZ has facilitated CPZ creep in a
> way
> > that was never necessary.
>
> Why they didn't go for the 2-hour window is beyond
> me - but then again we know what the real
> motivation for this is - another example of the
> council not listening to the constituents.
>
> We will soon find out how much of the problem was
> commuter related because if those who were
> lobbying for it on the basis of commuters were
> right we will see huge swathes of empty spaces
> around the station.
>
> I really worry about the impact on Lordship Lane
> as the combined factors of the creep from the CPZ
> and now the horrendous congestion caused by the
> closures will have a detrimental impact.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by sally buying September 16, 05:17PM

Posted by roywj Today, 05:02PM

The health centre and schools were always included as an issue. I think some people have focused on Melbourne Grove but the CPZ covers a greater area than that.

CPZ creep is natural and we suffered even when surrounding areas only introduced 12-2, 11-1 etc. If you live around Lordship Lane then you can vote for two hour windows when you get the opportunity again.

There is also a big problem with people selling cars on the road, long term cars parked which never move, abandoned vehicles etc. The CPZ solves all of these issues as well.

We have parked vans in our street festooned with parking ticks and have been there for months.

Dont hold your breath.

I was against the CPZ in our street but am now a confirmed fan. Life is much better.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Penguin68 September 16, 05:18PM

Many of the schools around here have their own parking, good train stations local as mentioned

And many don't. Additionally the public transport routes that serve us are optimised for those travelling from further south into town (north) - anyone living on an east:west axis and wanting to work in the Dulwich area will have a nightmare (and very long and 'round the houses' commute) on public transport - and that's if they want to risk that in Covid-19 land.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by first mate September 16, 05:19PM

One moment you say you feel for people suffering parking displacement as you know what it is like, the next it is ‘sour grapes’? Please don’t pretend not to be aware of the widespread effects car owners living close to a station and choosing all day CPZ, will have on the rest of us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 16, 05:20pm by first mate.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by roywj September 16, 05:25PM

Thanks Sallybuying, I know from other areas that they usually remove vehicles after the third ticket. Maybe worth cotacting parking.

sally buying Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Posted by roywj Today, 05:02PM
>
> The health centre and schools were always included
> as an issue. I think some people have focused on
> Melbourne Grove but the CPZ covers a greater area
> than that.
>
> CPZ creep is natural and we suffered even when
> surrounding areas only introduced 12-2, 11-1 etc.
> If you live around Lordship Lane then you can vote
> for two hour windows when you get the opportunity
> again.
>
> There is also a big problem with people selling
> cars on the road, long term cars parked which
> never move, abandoned vehicles etc. The CPZ solves
> all of these issues as well.
>
> We have parked vans in our street festooned with
> parking ticks and have been there for months.
>
> Dont hold your breath.
>
> I was against the CPZ in our street but am now a
> confirmed fan. Life is much better.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Rockets September 16, 05:26PM

roywj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lordship Lane is not in the CPZ area so will be
> unaffected. A lot of people commenting on the CPZ
> who do not actually live within the zone. Sounds
> like sour grapes to me.
>
> Rockets Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > first mate Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Yes, well you might but it was always argued
> > that
> > > commuter parking was the central issue, this
> > could
> > > have been dealt with by the time limited
> > option.
> > > Goodness, we had tales of commuter stalkers
> in
> > > cars harassing householders and all sorts.
> The
> > > health centre and schools were never
> mentioned.
> > > The all day CPZ has facilitated CPZ creep in
> a
> > way
> > > that was never necessary.
> >
> > Why they didn't go for the 2-hour window is
> beyond
> > me - but then again we know what the real
> > motivation for this is - another example of the
> > council not listening to the constituents.
> >
> > We will soon find out how much of the problem
> was
> > commuter related because if those who were
> > lobbying for it on the basis of commuters were
> > right we will see huge swathes of empty spaces
> > around the station.
> >
> > I really worry about the impact on Lordship
> Lane
> > as the combined factors of the creep from the
> CPZ
> > and now the horrendous congestion caused by the
> > closures will have a detrimental impact.


But it's pretty damn close and the neighbouring roads which will suffer from the displacement. I am not suffering from sour grapes - just, and always have been, worried about the impact all of these changes will have on Lordship Lane and the wider community.

A bit like the road closures - a few people will benefit whilst the majority suffer. Hardly sour grapes being concerned about the impact on others.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by monica September 16, 10:19PM

We witnessed cars receiving parking tickets on Matham Grove this morning. Reading a couple of posts re the CPZ, it seems to me the residents who wanted the CPZ, are still under the illusion they will get to park their cars outside their house. This will mot be the case, and when they are tired of having to pay the parking fees for friends and family, when they visit, and still cannot park your car outs your home, then you will be asking to remove the CPZ.
To he selfish few who just had to ruin East Dulwich and insist on CPZ, I hope you are proud of yourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 16, 10:19pm by monica.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by n dulwich northerner September 16, 10:29PM

monica Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We witnessed cars receiving parking tickets on
> Matham Grove this morning. Reading a couple of
> posts re the CPZ, it seems to me the residents who
> wanted the CPZ, are still under the illusion they
> will get to park their cars outside their house.
> This will mot be the case, and when they are tired
> of having to pay the parking fees for friends and
> family, when they visit, and still cannot park
> your car outs your home, then you will be asking
> to remove the CPZ.
> To he selfish few who just had to ruin East
> Dulwich and insist on CPZ, I hope you are proud of
> yourselves.

Over in N Dulwich, parking for residents improved enormously when the 12-2 CPZ was introduced as it stopped commuters and those from neighbouring Lambeth CPZs who were leaving their cars in N Dulwich. One could again guarantee that there would be parking space outside or close to the house.

I suspect the CPZ in East Dulwich will have similar effects, but I agree that the 9-6 will make it more onerous for visitors and will also damage businesses along Lordship Lane.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 16, 10:30pm by n dulwich northerner.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Spartacus September 16, 10:53PM

So n dulwich northerner what you are saying is that due to neighbouring CPZs you needed one due to the ripple effect

I do wonder if all CPZs were removed, that with the exception of a few hot spots, parking wouldn't actually be the problem that they were introduced to combat ?

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by n dulwich northerner September 16, 11:23PM

Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So n dulwich northerner what you are saying is
> that due to neighbouring CPZs you needed one due
> to the ripple effect

Yes. My neighbours all expressed opposition when a CPZ was first proposed, and only streets very close to the NDL and Herne Hill stations were in favour. But the introduction of Lambeth CPZs made parking very awkward, and everyone supported the CPZ when it was again proposed. My estimate was that about 1/3 of parked cars disappeared.

> I do wonder if all CPZs were removed, that with
> the exception of a few hot spots, parking wouldn't
> actually be the problem that they were introduced
> to combat ?

Who knows, but it's a pipe dream! And train stations are definitely hot spots.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Abe_froeman September 16, 11:41PM

I think the council have cottoned on to the domino effect now Jim Lad, and will respond much more rapidly to another new request, hence the partial implementation in the Melbourne Grove area and the heavy, heavy emphasis they put on the replies to "would you want a CPZ if the street next to you had one" last time round.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Spartacus September 16, 11:54PM

Does anyone know if there is a model for what happens to the displaced "commuters"

Whilst I suspect they drift from free zone to free zone as New CPZs are introduced, where do they go eventually ?

It's obviously not on to the buses as passenger numbers have been falling over the years.
Do they just give up and stop commuting full stop and at what economic impact ?

Let's look at Kings College hospital as an example, CPZs now surround it so how do medical staff get there ? Have the ones who live further out but are essential to running the hospital transferred to hospitals where they can drive ?

I'm not suggesting any solution or problems but I would be fascinated to see the modelling around where people go / how they behave if they can't commute as before. Is there a study for example that looks holistically at the impact across the whole of London.

You can bet your bottom dollar that no one has done a wider model than just around each CPZ zone 🤔

"Curious and curiouser" said Spartacus



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 16, 11:54pm by Spartacus.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by jimlad48 September 17, 09:28AM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, well you might but it was always argued that
> commuter parking was the central issue, this could
> have been dealt with by the time limited option.
> Goodness, we had tales of commuter stalkers in
> cars harassing householders and all sorts. The
> health centre and schools were never mentioned.
> The all day CPZ has facilitated CPZ creep in a way
> that was never necessary.

The stalking ocurred in our area. I knew several female residents who were very upset at the way that commuters worked out when they would leave in the morning, parallel park to their cars, and then wait for them to go out - it was something that made a lot of them uncomfortable, particularly when the commuter got a bit aggressive if they were running late.

So not fantasy, but fact.

In this case it was in an area used by commuters for bus, train and hospital facilities.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by roywj September 17, 10:07AM

I’m now unsure whether there has been much displacement. Had a look around top of Lordship Lane, surrounding roads and roads off of Townley Road about 9.30am this morning and there were plenty of parking spaces available. Surrounding roads at the bottom of Lordship Lane were busy but nothing unusual there, those roads were always busy pre lockdown.


Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know if there is a model for what
> happens to the displaced "commuters"
>
> Whilst I suspect they drift from free zone to free
> zone as New CPZs are introduced, where do they go
> eventually ?
>
> It's obviously not on to the buses as passenger
> numbers have been falling over the years.
> Do they just give up and stop commuting full stop
> and at what economic impact ?
>
> Let's look at Kings College hospital as an
> example, CPZs now surround it so how do medical
> staff get there ? Have the ones who live further
> out but are essential to running the hospital
> transferred to hospitals where they can drive ?
>
> I'm not suggesting any solution or problems but I
> would be fascinated to see the modelling around
> where people go / how they behave if they can't
> commute as before. Is there a study for example
> that looks holistically at the impact across the
> whole of London.
>
> You can bet your bottom dollar that no one has
> done a wider model than just around each CPZ zone
> 🤔
>
> "Curious and curiouser" said Spartacus

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Otto2 September 17, 10:09AM

Our street in the new CPZ would fill up with "commuters" every morning but more so on rainy or bad weather days. I think a lot of people that lived further away from the station would drive down and park to take the train rather than hopping on the bus or walking to it. During good weather, there were always less cars. So, I think these commuters are still commuters, but, finding another way to the station.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by first mate September 17, 10:15AM

I was not suggesting this was fantasy simply noting that commuter parking, as in people leaving their cars on roads around the station was given as the main driver for CPZ on streets around the station. People would not be parking for long periods for a school drop off or to use the health centre. The main argument was very much about commuters going to work. Time limited CPZ would have dealt with that, as well as school drop offs for that matter.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by northernmonkey September 17, 10:23AM

People used to drive from roads like Heber, Uplands Ullverscroft etc and park near the station - especially when it rained as per above. Expect those commuters would just walk (like they always should have - but were enabled by not being restricted)

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Spartacus September 17, 10:39AM

northernmonkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People used to drive from roads like Heber,
> Uplands Ullverscroft etc and park near the station
> - especially when it rained as per above. Expect
> those commuters would just walk (like they always
> should have - but were enabled by not being
> restricted)

But is that speculation or fact concerning where they originate from ?

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Rockets September 17, 10:42AM

northernmonkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People used to drive from roads like Heber,
> Uplands Ullverscroft etc and park near the station
> - especially when it rained as per above. Expect
> those commuters would just walk (like they always
> should have - but were enabled by not being
> restricted)

Interesting isn't it that time limited CPZs have been very effective in areas like Herne Hill in deterring commuters yet protecting the local community shops and Southwark opted for the all day option. Read into that what you will!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 17, 10:43am by Rockets.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by jimlad48 September 17, 03:58PM

In the toastrack, some of the people who complained against the CPZ introduction to the Council confirmed they were driving in from Kent each day, parking up and then commuting the final part by train/bus. Where free parking exists, some people like to use cars where convenient.

In our area, since the CPZ came in, day to day parking takeup has declined by about 60-70%.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Rockets September 17, 07:57PM

Which begs the question: where are those people parking now?

Didn't the "commuters from Kent" card get played during the East Dulwich CPZ consultation?

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by first mate September 17, 08:12PM

Why Rockets, they’re all cycling in from Kent now😉

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Abe_froeman September 18, 06:06PM

East of Lordship Lane is definitely bearing the brunt of the CPZ fallout. Possibly from the West Peckham CPZ too now that the schools in that zone are back.

I don't think it will be long before the clamour for an extension will whelm the council into a new consultation.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Slocky September 18, 06:15PM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why Rockets, they’re all cycling in from Kent
> now😉


I hope some of them are. Like I've done, they will find out how much nicer it is than driving in. And if they keep it up they are likely to live longer too.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Slocky September 18, 06:22PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> East of Lordship Lane is definitely bearing the
> brunt of the CPZ fallout. Possibly from the West
> Peckham CPZ too now that the schools in that zone
> are back.
>
> I don't think it will be long before the clamour
> for an extension will whelm the council into a new
> consultation.

Perhaps experiencing what those of us West of Lordship Lane went through. Though I'd guess that the CPZ has deterred some from using their car at all. The CPZ has been a massive improvement in Matham Grove.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Abe_froeman September 20, 10:17AM

Possibly. The residents of Dulwich Village / North Dulwich and Denmark Hill were to blame for your woes when they caved in / begged for a CPZ.

The council have very successfully played divide and conquer on the residents to get their pay to park schemes in across the whole borough.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 20, 01:11PM

CPZs kidnapped Shergar.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Slocky September 21, 09:16AM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CPZs kidnapped Shergar.


I don't know whether to blame CPZs or 5G masts. But I don't blame other local residents.

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Abe_froeman September 21, 10:02AM

But you literally just did blame other residents !! "Perhaps experiencing what those of us West of Lordship Lane went through"

messageRe: East Dulwich CPZ
Posted by Slocky September 21, 03:02PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But you literally just did blame other residents
> !! "Perhaps experiencing what those of us West of
> Lordship Lane went through"


Empathy is quite different to blame, but hey ho.

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