mockney piers

'That is where Christianity differs from the other Judaeo-religions: it contains no moral or legal code. That is probably why the Roman Empire collapsed shortly after Constantine elevated Christianity to an official religion - it was completely unworkable.' really? By shortly you mean a century and a half in the west and nine centuries later in the east? I know Rome worked on pretty big time scales, but ... The west collapsed because it went bankrupt after losing north Africa to the vandals and having too many commitments fighting barbarians and Huns on every front. Moral frameworks had nothing to with it. They lasted fine as slave mongering brutes for a very long time and some nominal Christianity did little to affect that.

Kato I honestly don't know what you're trying to argue. I don't think anyone is trying to compel anyone to anything. Sean's pointing g out tha. There is no evidence and that religions shouldn't have a say on legal matters. I'm trying to saythe debate is effectively pointless (which is I think where you are, but you still sound ike you're disagreeing somehow) and jeremy's pointing out that religions are inconsistent, sometimes within their own framework. I don't think there's anything specifically evangelical about any of the above though.

what a load of pretentious nonsense. Lets go back to Bobby McFerrin I say!!!

Finally someone gets there. No god no design. No design no absolutes. No absolutes no morality, no good no bad, no punishment no reward. Just because something seems scary, just because soemthing may feel inconceivable, doesn't mean that an alternative logically must exist, just emotionally seem preferable. I believe society creates morals because it's cohesive and it's logical. Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. I live by that as much as possible but I don't believe it's a universal absolute resulting in some weird points system of purgatory or eternal punishment or reward. God, we can't even decide what is good and bad, is a soldier a hero or a murderer? Society makes it's moral code according to what is useful. Even the church has come up with plenty of elaborate rules why thou shalt not kill, and even thou shalt not steal aren't absolute rules. When the religious law makers start bandying about caveats howcan you believe the rest of it?

Belief is a faith based position. Atheism is a rational position. It's not that I believe there is no god, that's incorrect. I don't care whther there is one or not. I have no belief in any god. In that sense I can't see the difference between faithless and atheism, they're identical aren't they, plus I'm not getting why there is some inference that faithless is somehow pejorative.

And the argument goes full circle. If it takes little explanation then by all means at least attempt some. I too have great interest in the subject, have studied the history and development of many religions. I can't however see how interest and knowledge equates to faith I really can't. Much as I love the whole spaghetti monster thing I don't believe in it. Is it a sort of negative or antifaith I have in the spaghetti monster? Do I have another one for the blue sky faerie, one for the invisible pink unicorn. I'm not entirely convinced Jordan exists to be honest...I could go on. If you are interested yet don't feel faithless it sounds to me like you're undecided but open to it. I'd suggest you're agnostic wih a penchant for a spiritual nature ratherthan an atheist as such. I'd say I'm agnostic, who by default of my position is effectively an atheist. My Opus Dei mate says the catholic term for me is a 'practical atheist'. Ie not a denier (I've already said that's an arrogant and pointless stance) but someone who's comfortable not needing a god and who's life is not impacted by dogma.

Another triumph. Touching performance by Joseph Mawle as the embitterEd failure who finds his goodness. Even less Anna and not a boobie in sight though.

The lovely Holly Golightly

Still not getting it. I see you can get picky and say "you believe ther is no god and can't prove it, therefore your position is one of faith" but that's just twisting semantics surely. Atheism is essentially lack of faith(s) isn't it. It's saying that there is no faith based rulebook which governs my behaviour. Your morality is therefore yours to choose. Explain to me how that is a faith. At it's best atheism is a default position that doesn't need to consider religion in the slightest as it's not a part of your life. Where atheists get uppity is when representative of faith(s) go fuether than saying 'you can't deny my right to worship, or to be protected from suppression, bigotry or hatred', and wander in to the realms of 'you can't do stem cell research or watch this play'. Or even worse 'i don't like this book/your job, you will die'

Nless something lively happens I'm annoyingly right. Boooooo

Im rather partial to Umberto Eco. Top chap and big anglophile too.

That's unfair. He was well liked in his neighbourhood, even shook hands with the president. It's not like he took photos at the local f?te or anything!! If you ask me he tarnished the reputation of basements more; nasty dank things!!

How can we not get into ethics when it's a resolutely ethical issue? You can close your eyes and ears and go 'Naaaaaa naaaaaa' all you want, doesn't make it go away. Doesn't make you scum mind, just selfish.

"You may be entitled to 6000 pounds compensation for the Accident you had. To claim for free reply with YES to this msg. To opt out text stop. JLXA" has anyone else been inundated with phone spam since that mobile directory came out? I understand email spam be as it's free, this must cost spammers a fortune meaning people must be a reet gullible bunch for it to be financially viable.

Aaaaaagh blimmin iPhone. Backbone. BACKBONE dammit!!!!!!

I don't think happiness at such good fortune necessarily precludes anyone from knowing what they've done is wrong (whether or not plenty of people would so it quids). If they don't feel it's wrong then santerme is correct about the state of their moral compass.

Semantics. I think you'd know inside that what you had done was morally unjustifiable. Hand it in totbe police, and if they can't find the owner it will go to you (as I understand). You would have at least tried though.

Oops sorry, toatally misread a previous post. Apologies.

" i go to a 15k a year school, on 100% academic scholarship." I'm counting at least two chips on your shoulder here. I'd take a deep breath and try and engage in a slightly less confrontation manner. On your plus side, a thief you maybe but at least you're an honest thief and your steering clear of pejorative terms like your agesake ;)

Or Australia finally show a bit of background and grind out a draw following a very tedious 300.

I was under the impression the Gibson thread was lounged rather than not deemed suitable or worthy. Sorry offtopication. Err, poltergeist.

Fair point. Is Marx or even 'philosophy' resonsible dor the millions killed by Stalin or Pol Pot? Mankind's a pretty nasty fella at the best of times, any excuse will do.

You're right about atheism not being afaith SMG, but BN5 is also rift in saying there is a very vocal minority of atheists who demonstrate all the characteristics of an intolerant faith. It was a trend that was born, as ever, in the states where faith is politicised to a quite hideous extent. I hoped we might stay free of the preaching tendencies of the atheist camp on tuis side of the pond, as in politics we famously don't do god. However it is happening more often. I'm all for live and let live. Religion should have mo say in the law in this country. Likewise rationalist atheism shouldn't intefere with peoples right to practice their faith.

Disturbingly I read this as phosgene, talk about making your eyes water

Does anything matter? Personally i say no. What i loved about MMs assertion that we are her by dumb luck and our purpose is continuation. How can a cosmic coincidence have a purpose, that implies design. So in one statement denies then affirms god. I'm generally inclined towardsthe dumb luck, thud there is ni hell, no commeuppance, no reason to be nice. But yet here we are and we know, and we have to try and get by and nice works for me and most of us. Pascals wager is stupid. Surely you have to make about a zillion of them, Zeus for starters will be pretty pissed of if you lean towards Baal or Yahweh. And annaj, if you managed to discern anything from antijen's stream of conciousness I can but doff my hat!! Ps ata wedding and trollied hence spelling and little sense