Marmora Man

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think this idea has been mooted before with > opinion divided - there is no doubt several shops > would benefit financially - it's just a question > of do they want to do the hours or does their > lease prevent it? > > The good stuff that I can't get anywhere else > (William Rose etc) I have learned to buy at the > weekend in advance and freeze as necessary. > > Off Topic now.... am I the only person who can't > read Marmora Man's sig without singing Neil > Young's Transformer Man? More details - what is Transformer Man? Should I be pleased or offfended?

Quaywe Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here yee all ED Indie stores: Please change your > midweek opening hours so we can shop in your indie > stores in the evenings! For anything foodie > related I reckon you'd do a roaring trade if you > remained open for us ED'ites to pick up a quick > meal on the way home. > > In particular I would like to see the following > shops remain open at least Weds-Fri: > > SMBS > William Rose (seriously, this shop could be open > 24x7 and still have a queue out the door the whole > time!) > Moxons > AJ Farmer > > Those three stores (+ AJF for when your potato > peeler breaks and you need an urgent replacement > or there'll be no mash!) remaining open would make > a serious dent in Somerfield/Sainsbury's midweek > evening shoppers revenue. Even if they don't, who > cares? I know some of us will be very happy! > > Why not give it a trial run Indie's - say Wed-Fri > until 7pm for a month??? Go on, you know you want > to! > > All those in favour? I support this strongly - but would add Cheese Block & Pretty Traditional to the list. If three late nights is not possible a mid week Wed / Thu late night opening would be good.

Gentlmen's Relish is a very strong anchovy fish paste - like Marmite excellent on hot buttered toast or crumpets.

A man is driving down a deserted stretch of highway when he notices a sign out of the corner of his eye....It reads: SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION 10 MILES He thinks this is a figment of his imagination and drives on without a second thought.... Soon he sees another sign which reads: SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION 5 MILES Suddenly he begins to realize that these signs are for real and drives past a third sign saying: SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION NEXT RIGHT His curiosity gets the best of him and he pulls into the drive. On the far side of the parking lot is a stone building with a small sign next to the door reading: SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS He climbs the steps and rings the bell. The door is answered by a nun in a long black habit who asks, "What may we do for you my son?" He answers, "I saw your signs along the highway and was interested in possibly doing business...." "Very well my son. Please follow me." He is led through many winding passages and is soon quite disoriented. The nun stops at a closed door and tells the man, "Please knock on this door." He does so and another nun in a long habit, holding a tin cup answers the door. This nun instructs, "Please place $100 in the cup then go through the large wooden door at the end of the hallway." He puts $100 in the cup, eagerly trots down the hall and slips through the door pulling it shut behind him. The door locks, and he finds himself back in the parking lot facing another sign: GO IN PEACE. YOU HAVE JUST BEEN SCREWED BY THE SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS. SERVES YOU RIGHT, YOU SINNER

mockney piers Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I can't help but feel that libertarianism boils > down two things. > > 1. I'm alright jack, keep your hands off my > stack. > 2. It's somebody else's problem, somebody else > will sort it out. > > The hilarious thing is that in the US the > champions of it have managed to con those in most > need, to vote for them, perversely by sowing seeds > of mistrust in government in general and attaching > themselves to 'moral' issues. Then they take cash > of all those who work hardest and the most > vulnerable and feed it to their buddies in big > business and the defence industry. > > It would be utterly absurd if it wasn't true; and > one reason why I hope it never catches on here. MP & CWALD - you've both misread my point or perhaps I've made it badly. Libertarianism is a belief that individuals know better than governments, that groups of people will come up with better and more optimal solutions than political parties, countries or huge organisations. As has often been pointed out how do you think we'd all fare if government ran food distribution in UK - would we have Marmite on the shelves for CWALD, William Rose organic beef for carnivores, street stalls selling Jamaican patties, home made cakes, quiches and bread freely available. Almost certainly not - we'd have a national menu with 5 portions of veg a day and potatoes specified by size. Salt would be rationed cos it's not good for you and as for alcohol - 25 mills a week of watery beer. So for me - localism is better than the national politics with annual conferences, plebicites and blcok votes. The EDF does a better job of keeping this community involved and informed than a national newspaper or Google. Medicin Sans Frontiere is better than the UN at responding to medical disasters. Me and my neighbours could achieve more in terms of street cleaning / area improvements than Southwark council. A village school with an independent head and four teachers can achieve more in terms of educating and inspiring children than any amount of centralised national curriculum set by whatever we call the Ministry for Education theses days. A local hospital, funded and supported by the local community would be cleaner, more responsive and better run than an outpost of the NHS. A problem at present is that too much of our time is taken earning our livings to pay our taxes so that government can then spend our taxes inefficiently in delivering the services we be better off organising for ourselves. Libertarians want to set individuals free to do their own thing - not wrap them in government rules, regulations and constraints.

Frisco Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm not really concerned whether your view appears > harsh or not, I was only concerned to correct the > erroneous impression given that the demise of the > RM in general use was wholly due to the DDA. > Rightly or wrongly, H&S played risk based role, > and when things are deemed to be the cause of > deaths they are very often altered, if only > because of insurance industry pressures. > > As I wrote, I was making the point about the H&S > based contribution to the decision and I have no > views on the 'fishy' apparent conspiracy theory > you refer to, except to say it is almost certainly > just that. The fact is that people's views aren't > usually fixed, especially when new information and > alternatives become available. Politicians can > change their views too, and although the RM had > become iconic, it wasn't ever really going to > increase bus usage and didn't send out the message > that London has a modern bus-based contribution to > its mass transit system. > > The RM still runs on the heritage routes used by > tourists and, in my opinion, that's where it > belongs. In my view the essence of the Routemaster wasn't that it was iconic - it was that it worked so well. 1. It had a driver who simply drove - no responsbility for taking fares, contrlling customers, advising customers. Made for a more focussed role and performance - enhancing passenger safety, comfort and oher road users safety (partic cyclists). 2. The bus conductor could control passsengers, advise them and generally be a helping hand for all dissabled and elderly except wheelchair users. 3. It took up very little road space for the 77 passengers it carried (?? I seem to remember that as the max no. of passengers). Certainly when compared with the awful, dangerous bendy bus. 4. If it was stuck in traffic passengers could get on and off. The frustration of being held, locked in, 200 yards from destination when walking would get you there more quickly is impossible to explain in words. A redesign to retain the good bits (including the jump on / jump off element) and improve DDA access would have been a much better option. I could envisage a design such that the old platform end being something that was hydraulically controlled with access to a wheelchair "parking space" so wheelchair users could get on / off. Just because it's iconic 1950's design doesn't mean it won't work in 2007.

For those that care I'm told by summer lifeguard son that James Nesbit can be seen regularly at Brockewell Lido when the sun is out.

For the lyrics section. Plus - how about top ten "things to be banned / binned forever" (see bottom of this post) One of us cannot be wrong: An Eskimo showed me a movie he'd recently taken of you: the poor man could hardly stop shivering, his lips and his fingers were blue. I suppose that he froze when the wind took your clothes and I guess he just never got warm. But you stand there so nice, in your blizzard of ice, oh please let me come into the storm. Leonard Cohen Suzanne: Suzanne takes you down to her place by the water She feeds you tea and oranges that come all the way from China Leonard Cohen The Partisan: When they poured across the border I was cautioned to surrender, this I could not do; I took my gun and vanished. I have changed my name so often, I've lost my wife and children but I have many friends, and some of them are with me. An old woman gave us shelter, kept us hidden in the garret, then the soldiers came; she died without a whisper. There were three of us this morning I'm the only one this evening but I must go on; Leonard Cohen (from French original) I Shot the Sheriff: All around in my home town? They're trying to track me down.? They say they want to bring me in guilty? For the killing of a deputy,? For the life of a deputy.?But I say: I shot the sheriff, but I swear it was in self-defense.? I shot the sheriff, and they say it is a capital offense. Bob Marley Evr?body must get Stoned: They'll stone ya when you're at the breakfast table. They'll stone ya when you are young and able. They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to make a buck. They'll stone ya and then they'll say, good luck. Tell ya what, I would not feel so all alone, Everybody must get stoned. Bob Dylan Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts: The festival was over, the boys were all plannin' for a fall, The cabaret was quiet except for the drillin' in the wall. The curfew had been lifted and the gamblin' wheel shut down, Anyone with any sense had already left town. He was standin' in the doorway lookin' like the Jack of Hearts. He moved across the mirrored room, Set it up for everyone, he said, Then everyone commenced to do what they were doin' before he turned their heads. Then he walked up to a stranger and he asked him with a grin, Could you kindly tell me, friend, what time the show begins? Bob Dylan Don?t Tell Mama: Mama thinks I?m living in a convent A secluded little convent, In the southern part of France Mama doesn?t even have an inkling, That I?m working nightclub In a pair of lacy pants So please sir, If you run into my mama Don?t reveal my indiscretion Give a working girl a chance Kander & Ebb (Caberet) The oldest established crap game in New York: The Biltmore garage wants a grand But we ain?t got a grand on hand They?ve now put a lock on the door Of the gymn at public school 84 There?s a stock room behind McKluskie?s bar But Mrs McKluskie ain?t a good scout And things being what they are The back of the police station is out Frank Loesser (Guys and Dolls) I got the four walls (and one dirty window) blues: I got the four walls and one dirty window blues: I got the four walls and one dirty window blues: If I?d saved my money when I was young and doing well I wouldn?t be here, singing in this cheap hotel I got the four walls and one dirty window blues: unknown Strange Brew: Strange brew -- kill what's inside of you. She's a witch of trouble in electric blue, In her own mad mind she's in love with you. With you. Now what you gonna do? Strange brew -- kill what's inside of you. She's some kind of demon messing in the glue. If you don't watch out it'll stick to you. To you. What kind of fool are you? Strange brew -- kill what's inside of you. On a boat in the middle of a raging sea, She would make a scene for it all to be Ignored. And wouldn't you be bored? Strange brew -- kill what's inside of you. Strange brew, strange brew, strange brew, strange brew. Strange brew -- kill what's inside of you. Eric Clapton, Gail Collins and Felix Pappalardi Ban / Bin Politicians Taxes Daily Mail Dog C*** on pavements Religion ID card Scheme Muzak Talking lifts Cars with sound systems better suited to Wembley Stadium 52 week football season

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Jonboy - "As to joining the political process - i > would be able to only for a short while until the > media dug into my less than squeaky history. I > didn't spend my formative years planning to be a > politician so now have "history". Oh well." > > If we allow the media to dictate who we should > have as our politicians, or demand they are > squeaky clean, then we will always have the same > types of people running things and nothing will > change. > > I've got a very dodgy past, which I declared, but > still got selected to stand for the Green Party > against Simon Hughes in the next election > (probably cos I'm not gonna win anyway!!) > > We need to challenge this ivory tower attitude to > politicians, and encourage people from all walks > of life, with all kinds of backgrounds to stand up > and get their voices heard by engaging in the > political process if we ever want to stop the > corruption and self-interest that is corroding our > dying democracy. Dodgy past or not once you've joined a political organisation you become a politician with the danger, that goes with the role, of becoming obsessed by the process and not the output / services to the community to be served. I note your Green Party has issues with heirarchy - some seeing a need for leadership, others wanting more democracy. Both parties / factions seems to see this as a really important point for discussion - when surely given the green manifesto it should be something else. In an ideal libertarian world - government would be small, there would be far fewer politicians and, ideally, they'd only meet for a few weeks a year. Taking time off to read good books, meet interesting people and engage with the real world.

Brendan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think she's talking about busses Marmora Man. If that's the case I won't need a picture.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > AJ Farmers is not a "Pound Shop" and if I were the > family who had invested in that business locally > for the last 65 years (yes it is that old) i'd be > a bit miffed by people calling it that. I guess to > newcomers that shop is cheap compared to what they > usually buy. > > I recommend Le Moulin for a good evening meal > CSM Dry Cleaners > Udens Funeral Services (just incase) > The Co-operative chemist (very friendly staff) My apologies to AJ Farmers - had never noiced the name and was using the term "pound Shop" as a generic not perjorative description. MAny storage boxes and "odds & sods" have been purchased by Marmora family there.

Forgot to add Macey's Chemist on Northcross Road - excellent staff, very helpful. They deliver prescriptions to my housebound father-in-law and always remember him and ask how he is when I go in. Plus they stock a range of products seldom found in a "standard" chemists.

Endorse all the above and: The Cheese Block - wide selection cheeses at fair prices with knowledgeable staff The bread & cakes stall on Northcross Road - excellent sourdough and other breads - beats mass produced supermarket pap, only my wife's homemade bread is better. The meat stall on Northcross Road - smaller than William Rose, less stock - same quaity and flavour Blue Mountain Cafe - better than Sainsbury's Starb**** (tho Dulwich Mum will disagree) The "Pound Shop" beside Gourmet Burger Bar - useful for little odds & sods, sellotapae, lamp bulbs, cotton. The stationery supplies shop next to EDT. Friendly and helpful staff.

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think that materialist interpretation of the > world was a reaction to the capitalist materialist > interpretation of the world and doesn't actually > describe the true nature of oppression which is > much wider than as mere objects in the machinery > that is the means of production. > > I need to catch a life in the morning! > > Goodnight I didn't understand what this sentence was about at all, it seems just a grouping of words to me with as much meaningful content as "random green ideas sleeping furiously" Can you draw me a picture?

Having been a bus user for several years (Maggie Thatcher would be appalled!) I too have seen a major deterioration in quality of driving. I can handle miserable, monosyllabic drivers - as many posts have identified it's probably not the most uplifting of jobs these days. I now most frequently use the 63 / 363 and 12. However, I fail to understand why every bus stop seems to surprise the driver so much - such that they are racing along and then, ooops it a bus stop - stamp on brakes and hurl 70% of passengers toward front window. Within my family a grandparent was a London Transport bus driver - his pride was to provide a calm and steady pace that kept him and his bus on time and up with the timetable. It may be that timetable targets are set at an unrealistic level and they have to hit a higher speed of travel than is realistically possible - so may not all be the drivers fault - but passengers do suffer.

An Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman walk into a bar - the barman says "what's this - some kind of joke?"

Surely it will be Rock?

I woudl argue that my "selfish" needs (shelter, warmth, food) are met by particpating in society and helping others. I don't need to be legislated into doing this. My Goose Green example was an illustration of my personal plan

Man in black hat sidles in, walks to the right hand end of the bar. Checks the bar for choice - decides there's enough and orders a large malt whisky, drinks it straight, pays for it himself. Looks at left hand end of bar for someone to argue with. Yep - Marmora Man just rode into town.

Jonboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Also, at nearly 900 pages its a good one for the > beach. > > Or picket line, or DSS office. > > Wherever you spend your holidays really. But as with almost all author's his first was his best. Hunt for the Red October was firstlty a great techno thriller (probably the first, secondly it revealed a signifcant number US Navy secrets in the first five pages and finallly was. loosely, based on a real incident in the Gulf of Finland.

Mockney - it's all to do with implementation. Governments can't we (the individual) can. This discussion is getting so lively I can't post quickly enough to respond to all the points - but I detect a swing toward some individualism - and to reply to an earlier comment by someone - I want everyone to have the same freedom fro nannying / direction / government decision making as I want.

JoeChuff Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > haha i'm in a minority in that I openly welcome > more nannying from the state - I need it! > > That's an interesting point about libertarians, > though. I've met a few committed libertarians, and > without exception (so far) they are well educated, > sensible, self-disciplined and responsible people. > Two have been former US marines. If everyone was > like them, then minimal state intervention would > probably work. But unfortunately, most people are > not. My aim in life is to persuade more people to think libertarian and become like the exemplars you mention. You know it makes sense!

Jonboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > MM, I am fearful for your long term safety, both > in this virtual world and also in the real ED > world. The expression of interest in such > loony-right ideals as smaller government, a > privately managed NHS and a market ecomomy will > upset many of the militant Trots who hang out in > here. > > Try to bear in mind always when in this forum that > market forces are evil. They allow people to > freely choose what to buy, and where to buy it > from. As an example, the evil emporium White Stuff > will offer a range of clothes. If they are not > what people want to buy, the shop will close. This > is morally wrong. The shop should be prevented > from opening in the first place, to protect us all > from the evil intentions of its owners, viz, an > interest in offering us a place to buy clothes. > > Your crazy high-Tory spoutings will endanger all > of us who have so far managed to be more discreet. > Please, stop now as you put all of us in danger. > > For the love of God MM, go back to Fulham. If you > must stay here, then contact me. A bunch of us > crazy neo-cons meet in secret at the top of One > Tree Hill each week to read the Spectator - you're > more than welcome to join us if you can be > trusted. Great - can I bring my copy of Wealth of Nations ot quote from and a New Statesman to burn for warmth?

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > DaveR - the debate has been going so well - no > need to degenerate into yah boo sucks type > language > "The poorest people in a market-based democracy > are invariably richer than the poorest in an > equivalent authitarian state, and they know it. > Slagging off market economics is a luxury > availalbe only to developed world whingers" > > If we DO have the luxury of "slagging off market > economics" - or as I would prefer to describe it > "addressing the obvious problems affecting even > the best run economy", then that doesn't mean we > should ignore it. > > To address a specific point of MM's - namely: > "I have worked in public and private healthcare > sectors here and abroad and it is these > experiences that have led to my absolute > conviction that business does it better than > government. I will admit that I make an assumption > that what I have seen in healthcare translates > across to education, but what I've learnt is that > the 1960s / 1970s state education level of > service, quality, ethos and expectation that I was > fortunate enough to enjoy was not easily found for > my two children over the last 10 years." > > This sounds suspiciously like someone who was > never on the receiving end of the care in > question. To reverse it - would I rather be a poor > person needing medical care in the US or in the > UK? > Ok if you have money and are used to certain > levels of comfort then the rough and tumble of the > NHS might be an affront to your senses - but > considering what it is providing to everyone it's > a small price to pay IMO > > As for the 60s/70s ethos found in your education > but not in your children's - is it not possible > that the higher levels of taxation in that period > meant a bigger fund for education, thus nurturing > the staff and ethos you describe? I'm not saying > that's the only factor but if the state ran a > pretty good education system then, what's to stop > it now? Sean, Healthcare first: I was born in the 50's - statistically I'm about to start costing the NHS money and have already been on the receiving end (orthopaedics / cardiac / haematology) and also been responsible for the delivery in the NHS. I wanted to receive the best and I certainly wanted my team to deliver the best. Both desires were thwarted by the inherent tendency toward mediocrity that bloated organisations create. Trying to persuade staff that turning up on time was a good idea, that not booking all appointments for the same 2.00pm slot could lead to greater efficiency and service to patients (never clients - please), that the Patient Transport System did not exist to take tired and emotional porters and nurses back to their home or that tea / meal breaks were not more important than a patient were all problems I spent time working on in the NHS. I had some wins and persuaded some staff to change, eventually sacked (tho' it took nearly 18 months) two obvious time wasters but there are scars on my back. Moving to private healthcare I discovered nurses that enjoyed caring for patients and didn't need a committee meeting every other day or run off for a fag just when a patient arrived, doctors who really wanted to make people better and were content they didn't have to battle the system to get things done - that the unit had just one manager (me), an accountant and three clerks. Everyone else was either clinical or service orientated (cooking, cleaning & maintaining). If a doc came to me with an idea for a new service we could get it up and running in weeks - not years. I was able to recruit new staff when required at salaries that attracted them immediately and not wait for the HR department to approve the new vacancy. I was able to performance manage staff with an appropriate mix of incentives (bonus / promotion / additional responsbility) and disincentives (no bonus / demotion / dismissal) without unnecessary HR hassle. The big difference was response to, and speed of, change when required to satisfy patients. Recent changes toward market forces in the NHS have seen some of the patient service initiatives I tried to develop in the early 90's become almost standard - but the mediocrity tendency remains. Education: Education in the 60s / 70s wasn't awash with money - it was awash with more dedicated staff and a much simpler ethos. Today there's far more money spent (real terms) than ever before for less positive results. Mny staff are demoralised - affecting the ethos and driving standards and expectations down. On both points I don't think either system is in total meltdown - heroic efforts by those that stay inside the system keep it running. Their job and the output would just be som much easier / better if business ran the system rather than government. Governments are better at raising taxes and spending - they are, in general, b***** awful at managing.

Wanted to test the waters with my original post. Clearly my libertarian instincts are not shared by the majority. I'll try to summarise my personal world view. 1. I'm an individual and do not want the government to make decisions on my behalf. 2. I am prepared to take responsbility for my decisions - good or bad and do not expect to be rescued by government. 3. I recognise that not everyone is so fortunate but believe that families, communities, local charity groups / churches and individuals are better placed to help their neighbour than central government (cf: tax credit fiasco, child support agency fiasco, any government IT project fiasco) and would do so more often and with greater will if the current nanny state let up a bit (preferably a lot) 4. Let more people keep more of their taxes and they'll spend the money more sensibly than will the government. Raising tax thresholds to, say, ?10,000 would do far more for the low paid individually and as a group than any amount of government hand outs. Such a "tax cut" could probably almost be funded out of the savings on the bureaucracy and errors that the current tax credit system incurs. 5. Businesses - big and small together pay more tax than total personal taxation and also contribute to society in the services / goods they provide, the employment and training they provide and, less often, in the buildings and premises thy create (I love looking at the Gerkin on the skyline and some of the new skyscrapers that big busines will bring to London look pretty nifty too). For these reasons I support their activities - tho' if they fail to deliver to their promises / my expectations you will see me in full on complaint mode until I'm satisfied - recent battles and wins include Virgin Media and their cable TV service, Virgin Trains and B&Q. 6. Public sector services are generally poorer than private sector services because of the inherent bureaucracy and tendency toward unnecessary administration. The NHS in concept (equality, equity and free at the point of delivery) is excellent - it's the management of the service that is so bad. I have no problem with taxes funding healthcare - but not government managing it. If the government were to use taxation to fund the care but allow private sector providers to deliver the care we would see a major improvement in service levels. 7. I have worked in public and private healthcare sectors here and abroad and it is these experiences that have led to my absolute conviction that business does it better than government. I will admit that I make an assumption that what I have seen in healthcare translates across to education, but what I've learnt is that the 1960s / 1970s state education level of service, quality, ethos and expectation that I was fortunate enough to enjoy was not easily found for my two children over the last 10 years. Finally, I enjoy shopping on Lordship Lane because I get to know the shopkeepers and they get to know me. The relationship(s) make for a better experience. In its own way LL and EDF is an example of what I mean. It functions very well without a government. If Goose Green were to flood tomorrow would we all sit back and expect "them" / "the government" to do something or would local neighbours, churches, scout groups, pubs & restaurants et al turn to and help clothe, feed and house any victims. My sunny optimistic nature assumes that the latter would apply because we are a pretty self reliant community. Yes the government funded fire brigade would also be there - but it doesn't have to be government funded - there are plenty of models of volunteer / locally funded rescue services (the RNLI is just one).