Marmora Man

I think this is old and unproven research - but if even halfway true the economics don't add up. ?100,000 over a 45 year working life is just over ?2,000 a year salary improvement for three years of study and, currently, an average of ?20,000 debt. If the ?2,000 extra is taxed at higher rate of 41% then the individual has ?1,180 a year over 45 years to pay back ?20,000 from - leaving a net balance of ?34,000 or less than ?750 a year or ?15 a week as a benefit. Given that the old research was probably conducted before the massive expansion of university places which will devalue degrees it is likely that, on average, there's no financial benefit from attending many universities. Attending a top university will probably pay dividends - in two ways. One the degree will be highly regarded and therefore ease the way into a top job, two - the student will network with other bright young things who will, in due course, be at the top end of their careers and well placed to assist each other. Regrettably, attending the University of South DoDashire (formerly the 6th form college)with two Ds and an E to study "Waste Management & Dance" [i kid you not there was such a degree course on offer last year] will not improve earning potential. Go for an apprenticeship and become an honest tradesman - and, if you're good at it, set up in business and make a fortune or just be happy doing what you do well. Increased tuition fees might resolve the problem thru' market forces. It's becomes worth paying (aka getting into debt) for a good university and a good degree - because it will get you a premium job that enables you to pay back the loan. If it's a lousy degree - it's not worth the money - don't go and the second rate Uni fails. A smaller population of degree qualified people will enhance their value - somewhere there should be a balance and it's not, I suspect, at 50% of all 18 year olds attending university. 25% - 30% might be more like it. I exclude from my comments those that simply wish to expand their academic horizons and enjoy study - university shouldn't be solely about the financial reward it may bring - but that's the general tenor of much of the debate.

You could try asking the Maritime Museum at Greenwich - they may know of an expert?

My team were watchkeepers in Maritime Headquarters Northwood - responsible for among others things, in no particular order, the nuclear deterrent submarines, any other UK or NATO submarine at sea (ensuring that two submarines were not in the same part of the Atlantic at the same time), maintaining an intelligence plot of USSR submarines suspected locations, liaising with RAF and NATO maritime aircraft, co-ordinating air - sea searches, transfers and rescues. Plus anything else that came along - like the Falklands conflict. So not firefighting but it did require alert, enquiring and dedicated teamwork.

Don't forget the wonderful smell of a burning log - almost as good as bacon on the grill. Certainly worth a bit of effort.

It is somewhat unusual for Hugenot and me to be on the same side - but always good to have another rationalist onboard. If Moflo or Douglas would lay out objectively the basis of the dispute, what the firefighters are trying to achieve and what the management team are offering we might be able to have a rational debate. I'd acknowledge that anyone that runs deliberately into a fire to rescue someone is a useful member of society, but so is a school crossing lady, a school teacher, a nurse, a doctor, a soldier, a lawyer, a sailor, a chef, a social worker and yes, even a banker. They all contribute in different ways to the society we live in. Bravery is to be respected not but not to the exclusion of all other parts of the argument.

Dougal Mulldoon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- It comes after the FBU union members voted 79 percent yes to strikes on a 79 percent turnout yesterday. That you have majority support does not, of itself, mean your argument is right. It may mean that the union leaders have misrepresented the situation to their members, something that is hardly unknown. They are fighting their bosses? plan to sack all 5,500 of them unless they sign up to worse shifts. This threat, which has been part of employment legislation since the 70's, only came about because the two parties have been unable to agree - or even agree to talk. It is not, of itself, the cause of the strike, The shift changes would see the night shift made three hours shorter and mean cuts to night-time fire cover. Hardly - since the day shift will increase by three hours - therefore the 24/7 cover remains London?s firefighters are already taking action short of a strike. Their overtime ban has forced some fire stations to temporarily close, showing how far the service has been relying on their goodwill just to run normally. Use of overtime work is a recognised way of increasing flexibility without incurring permanent costs of higher staff numbers. As firefighters have firstly, willing taken up the overtime, and secondly been paid for it - this is hardly a goodwill gesture on the part of the firefighters But now the battle is really on. And the clock is ticking. The mass sackings are not just a threat?they are a legal process that the bosses started back in August. If the plan is not defeated then the first firefighters could be sacked on 26 November. The fire authority bosses, led by crazed Tory councillor Brian Coleman, have shown all along that they?re spoiling for a fight. And over the last five years the firefighters haven't equally been spoiling for a fight? This is normal union rhetoric and does not advance the argument about shift patters Last month, with 3,000 firefighters from across the country laying siege to their headquarters in a protest march, the bosses still decided to push ahead with the plan. Then the protest wasn't very helpful - constructive talks might have been And the FBU gave the bosses 24 hours to back down after their decisive strike vote yesterday ? yet still they refused. Instead they have been spending their time preparing a scab force run by private firm AssetCo. Equally the FBU had 24 hours to back down - there are two parties to this dispute The union has rightly said that there can?t be any talk of negotiations until the sacking blackmail is withdrawn. ?You don't negotiate with a gun to your head,? FBU general secretary Matt Wrack has said. Perhaps the Fire Service chiefs feel the same about the proposed strike action - it's a gun to their head. That's what strike action is about - threats of losing a service. > But the bosses have shown no sign of taking away that gun. And the union has shown no signs of backing off the proposed strike > Now the union can, and must, beat them once and for all. And to do that the firefighters will need as much support and solidarity as we can possibly deliver. Socialist Worker talk. The strikers do not have my support with this kiind of talk. Put together a rational argument as to why the move from 9; 9; 15; 15; hour shifts to 12; 12; 12;12 hour shifts is dangerous, costly, illogical or something else and I might listen and might support you but not before

1. I didn't suggest the firefighters work 14 days at a stretch - it was an example of what others have agreed through negotiation. 2. If driving / travelling before / after a 12 hour shift is dangerous then how much more so is it after a 15 hour shift as currently done? 3. Given that fire-fighters are not always fighting fires then effective day shifts spent, at least in part, publicising fire prevention policies seems a good idea. 4. Given that, again as I understand it, here is no suggestion that these proposed shift changes will affect pay levels and offer staff a more balanced life this proposed strike seems to be more about "who's in charge" than a genuine dispute about Terms & Conditions.

As I understand it the core of the issue is about shift patterns. It would be helpful if Moflo outlined the what is in dispute. Allegations of highhanded management are just "normal" dispute rhetoric as are management allegations of union intransigence. Facts would be helpful As I understand it the point of dispute is over shift patterns - with the present being 2 9 hour day shifts followed by two 15 hour night shifts followed by four days off - which averages out at 30 hours a 5 day week. Management has proposed two 12 hour day shifts followed by two 12 hour night shifts followed by four days off - which averages at 30 hours for a 5 day week. Hardly revolutionary. Having supervised shift workers myself, working in a very similar pattern to the firefighters, the current pattern seems to me to be inefficient. My team happily agreed, after discussion and negotiation to 7 x 12 hour days shifts, followed by 7 x 12 hour night shifts followed by two weeks off. It still averaged 6 hours a day / 30 hours a week over the year but they really valued the 2 week break every month and felt the two hard weeks of shift work were worth it. Efficiency came from the improved continuity and reduced handovers - altho' no staff were made redundant, just redeployed to a standard 40 hour 8 - 5 week. Management also argue that longer day shifts allow for improved training time and increased time to deliver other, non firefighting tasks - such as prevention. Sounds sensible to me.

I have time between projects coming up and want to go on a long walking holiday, where I can gradually walk to fitness, starting at 10 miles a day and gradually increasing to 20 / 25 a day. Have done long distance before - Pennine Way, West Highland Way, Cornish Coastal etc but UK weather in November not enticing. Have considered Compostella de St ???? in North Spain but again weather prospects not great in Nov. So can anyone advise or suggest where might be good? North Africa perhaps?

Born in Chelmsford, raised in Ilford and Elsenham - all in Essex. Used to have a great cricket team (think of Fletcher, Gooch, Hussein et al). Some good pubs for a youngster - posh boozing in lounge, underage boozing, crib and farmworkers in public bar. Miss it - but plan to retire to Cornwall and the sea.

Surely one of EDF's virtues is that it is, on the whole, completely non racist / classist / sexist? I have only ever attended two EDF drinks so most posters are virtual beings to me. If I offend anyone or am offended by anyone it is down to the opinions they express - not colour, class or gender. Sean McG and tend to agree on food matters and disagree on politics. Sean's race, sex and class are irrelevant to the quality of his argument - tho' I tend to support his stance in this thread.

giggirl - I tend to agree with your point - but try the website "say no to 0870" which provides aklternative numbers to dial for major utility and other companies - often bypassing the annoying auto system and getting you through to a human bean straight away.

Mick Mac - touche! But for much of my time in my ED house I did share it with my in-laws and gave them the support they needed in their final frail years. I also share my goods"" with others in different ways - training, advice, charitable giving, tax,

Equality of opportunity, sharing of skills combined with compassion for others. So modifying Sean McG's earlier example to become: Two people wash up on an island One of them notices a pile of wood on their side of the island and builds a hut, using all available material. Do they tell the other person to sleep outside in the pouring rain or do they share the shelter? YES This individual has made most of the opportunity presented - with compassion they will offer shelter to the other and, perhaps, discover that the other person can help by spinning a fishing line from hair so that sharing has helped both find food to live off.

MP - you know my concerns about that P word we debated it here a few months back.

Seems fair to me - and, although I loathe the word - progressive. If you are elegible for higher rate tax then a ?1,000 a year "bung" from gov't seems inappropriate. Longer term it reduces the crazy circulation of our money in the "I pay taxes to the gov't for it to return some of it to me, less the inevitable transaction costs of the process" way. If/when IDS consolidation of the tax and benefits system comes into place many of the anomalies will be ironed out with a gradual reduction of child benefit as total household income grows.

James, Back in April I asked if the council could be asked to clear up / remove the memorial at the Peckham Rye / East Dulwich Road crossroads. It is now over nine months since the accident and sad death of a child. Most of the "memorial" is now very sad, untidy and is obviously uncared for - nothing has been added to it since February. I acknowledge your earlier concerns, tho' I didn't agree, that it was too early back in April.

giggirl's post reminds of Hans Fallada's book - "Alone in Berlin". If you have not read it - I commend it to you. An account of living under Hitler & Nazi rule it has no resounding, epic, heroism tale to tell but reflects the horrors of living under a totalitarian regime and quiet resistance in a very telling way.

I am of an age where hair has disappeared from my head and is, instead, growing from nose, nostrils and ears. Why? What evolutionary purpose do these contrasting hairy effects serve?

Chez Marmora is in favour. We reckon we can get down to one small bag of non recyclable rubbish a week, which won't overburden the green bin while getting shot of organic decomposing matter weekly seems a good idea.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And us lefties cling to 80s dogma?!! > > ;-) Not dogma Sean - just an appreciation of Kinnock's ability over last few years as an EU commissioner. His analysis and decisions there weren't always first rate!

Slightly sweaty palmns watching that. 40 years ago as a Rag Week stunt, with three Climnbing Club colleagues, I climbed a large tower crane behind Fleet Street to hang a large banner from the end of the jib. Subsequently spent 10 years rock and mountain climbing and abseiling - in those days I thought I was immortal. Last month I abseiled 150 foot from the top of the O2 arena, for charity - straight drop with no wall or rock face. That made me realise I'm no longer as young as I was, no longer immortal and that it's very very scary do such silly things. I certainly wouldn't want to go anywhere near that tower. BTW - what would "elf & safety" make of it - the climber's technique in clipping off / on looked pretty dodgy to me.

The knowledge that Neil Kinnock thinks the emergence of Ed Milliband as leader is surely a major set back?

Children live at home with their parents - who do their best for them - whether it's town, country or Mars. Parental care and love is far more important than geography.

As the actress said to the bishop! Bet you he won't ever be a Prime Minister.