DJKillaQueen

If you look at the annual national deaths of fire fighters over the past 20 years you will see they vary between 1 and 8 per year. Compare that to up to 60 construction workers per years and 14 Police Officers two years ago. Now one death is one too many but it is just not true to say that there is a significant number of deaths amongst fire fighters.

In that case I just don't agree that the changes will increase the risk you claim. I am sure there will be adaquate cover just as there has been every time a fire station has been closed...in spite of the claims made to the contrary. And can we cease with this our job is soooo dangerous nonsense. You chose to be a fireman.

We saw this argument every time a station was faced with closure (only to see that the closure had no impact on the safety of the public as claimed in the end). Can you give us some statistics on just how many fires happen at night on average and how many firemen/ stations are needed to cover them? Because it suggests that if firemen have time to sleep on night shifts then there are clearly too many of them on duty (controversial statement I know but as yet no-one has provided any hard evidence that public safety will be at risk by the changes).

And it obviously does good business or it wouldn't be there.......supply and demand.

You really think there are no low income people in ED jason?

Yes, because other cultures use fireworks for other festivals besides Nov 5th.

It was one of the defining dramas of the 80's.

But to be fair here all apects of this debate have elements of truth. Surely to suggest that every FF is striking for altruistic reasons (i.e. for our safety) is a bit much. There are clearly other issues at hand which are directly about (whether rightly or wrongly so) changing some of the working structures and those (whatever the sector or industry) are always aout making savings and are always opposed by employees and unions (often for reasons of self interest). I think where there is a lack of support, it is because too many people in this country are not having a good time in employment, with no job security, no pension provision, long hours and so on. It's hard for many people to support public sector workers whilst they themselves are struggling in jobs with little say over what their employer may or may not do. Personally I don't want to see anyone lose their job, or to see anyone's quality of life reduced by overly demanding work practises but cuts/ savings will have to be made somewhere. Accepting a pay freeze is not going to be enough (and cuts no ice with the millions of private sector workers who NEVER get year on year pay rises, if they get any kind of pay rise at all).

True. Think the judges will go to the public vote on Diva F and Bel A.

Amd she sounded like she was trying to do Kate Bush too.....

That's my toffee boys ;-)

*round of applause*

Wind up? Nooooooooo....I was just going to add can we rid the streets of Liberal Democrats too? :) Having said that, I am suddenly reminded of the words of Pastor Niemoller....wih some ammendments ahem... 'They came first for Iceland, and I didn't speak up because I didn't shop at Iceland. Then they came for the ugly people, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't ugly. Then they came for smelly people, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't smelly. Then they came for Liberal Democrats, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Liberal Democrat. Then they came for me and East Dulwich had no-one left in it to speak for me.' >:D<

They also said they want to return Liverpool back to their glory days! Good luck......

And I polish my crown every day.....walk the corgis and then hit the decks for a bit of Ministry of Sound style mixing........the Palace rocks! >:D

Thankfully Ratty most of us won't ever experience a fire, just as most of us won't ever have our houses burgled, or be murdered and so on. I'm not denying it's a job that has stresses and requires bravery and skill to do (that's common sense)....just arguing that is one of many jobs like that, none of which provide beds for their employees to sleep on during the hours they are paid to be on duty.

I hear what you are saying Brum but there are many other high risk, high stress professions, where people work up to 12 hours and don't get the luxury of a snooze. Reasonable breaks and rest periods are part of employment law for all employees. It's just my opinion but I can't see any reason why the fire service need special treatment in this repsect, especially given that some other professions deal with far more death and danger every day of the week. In fact statistically, deaths in the fire service are low and have been for at least the last 20 years, unlike many other industries, such as construction (which has significantly higher death rates) and the Police service. And good post Mamora Man - the rhetoric (union and otherwise) you point to is also a reason why I am irritated by some of the claims made by those who are choosing to strike.

This has happened to me too...the red card through the door with no attempt to deliver the item. Twice I've managed to catch the postman in the act and have complained on numerous occasions to Royal Mail. It seems to be something some sorting offices do when they are short staffed or feel the postman won't have enough time to complete the round. Last Saturday post didn't arrive until 4.30 pm! Personally I don't use Royal Mail for sending parcels anymore. Private courier firms cost the same and are far more reliable. The sooner Royal Mail is privatised the better imo.

Yep joined ten days ago and has posted four times........TROLL-TIME....

Where hopefully Everton will win :) The real problem Liverpool has is living up to it's glory days. Every manager that comes in is expected to bring LFC back to that, and that's a big ask, especially given how much the game and club management has changed. Liverpool have had some good runs over recent years in the champions league, but the truth of the modern premiership is that money has taken over substance and I think Liverpool have become a victim of that. Big finance does not equate to silverware as Chelsea have found out in their pursuit of the Champions League trophy. Ultimately good managers who make the right choices are who make the difference. I think Benitez was limited in what he could achieve with Liverpool.

To be honest I'm torn on the issue of beds. Do police officers and paramedics get beds? C'mon you are employed to do a job, not to sleep. There are millions of shift workers in the UK and shift work is usually set in blocks giving the body time to adjust. My view is that no worker should be doing 12 hour plus shifts and that an issue accross the country in many jobs. The Working Time Drective means nothing in the UK. Long hours, yet we are one of the least productive countries in Europe for those hours worked. France operates a strict 38 hour week for most employees - and it hasn't killed her economy.

Pearson i think its a bit different for someone who is responsible for saving a life? Which is like saying if an office worker crashes on the way home because they fall asleep at the wheel, it doesn't matter? If you look at the stats for the number of incidents that firemen attend accross London, they are not spending every hour of every day attending stressful or dangerous incidents. Haivng said that I persoanlly think 12 hours is too much for any worker and makes a mockery of the working time directive. France operate a 38 hour week by law...do they see their public and private sectors fall down as a result? The truth is we have long working hours but poor productivity...anyway that's a whole other discussion.

add on a 75-90 min commute. Those 12 hour days would make for a very long day, an unsafe journey home, and rarely seeing their families... A lot of people in many jobs already travel and work those hours.... I think Dave C does have a point though in the sense that we get the working conditions we put up with. However my public sector Union for example is useless because it's membership isn't high enough to bring any kind of impact in an industry where 80% of workers are contract or freelance. People are just too frightened of never working again to rock the boat. So it's not as easy as just saying workers should stand up. Lack of job security is a major reason why many do not stand up in the Public Sector.

It was the community aid officer So not an expert in DPA law then? Put a camera up on your property and wait for a court to tell you to take it down, as they are the only ones that can, and even then, only if an individual/ organisation brings a case against you (and suceeds) under the Data Protection Act.

Also the majority of people in the private sector are not earning anything like the average wage so that arguement cuts no ice with me. And a lot of public sector workers are freelance or employed by contract so there is no room for collective negotiation or demonstration to force bosses to change anything. Private sector workers just do not have the same protection or negotiating power.