Earl Aelfheah

Interesting map. Not such a London / North split. Scots and Welsh looking likely to vote very differently to England if true. That'll put Scottish independence back on the agenda.

.. but it is going to get worse if we leave

As an aside, doesn't anyone think it's pretty weird timing in terms of the referendum, considering the government are backing remain? We have the queen's 90th - with all the nostalgia for Britain's past and general flag wavery + the Football and the proxy European war which that represents (and more flag waving nationalism). You probably couldn't pick a moment more likely to produce an out vote.

There is no reason to think that leaving the EU will bring down immigration in the long term (it may in the short term simply due to the likelihood of a recession / reduction in demand for labour). People are here to work in all but a handful of cases and those jobs will still need doing (unless, as I say, there is a significant down turn, which is quite possible / probable). Immigrants are much more likely to be net contributors to the exchequer (as they're more likely to be of working age), so even if a future government decided that it would limit numbers regardless of demand, there would be even less money available to allocate to public services. The whole immigration debate is a complete red herring in my opinion. It's being used to excuse the effects of an explicit policy to reduce public spending (austerity). Why on earth people can't see a link between reduced spending on services and reduced quality of those services is beyond me.

A significant section of the press have, over many years, run a deliberate campaign of misinformation on Europe and immigration. Politicians have chosen not to take this on (often taking advantage of some of the myths that have been created) and now we may well pay the price: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html [EU referendum: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows]

One way to reduce net EU migration would be to stop the English hooligans returning.

Got a Leave leaflet through the post today. Two massively misleading statement both back and front (discredited 350m and Turkey immently joining claims). Also a map of Europe showing the new countries that are supposedly joining (they're not) with Iraq and Syria highlighted. Clearly trying to link remaining and threat of terrorism. Boris and Chums are wilfully misleading the public.

OK who's the one person voted 'other'

Someone can be deported if convicted of rape. The Telegraph article is about a man who had previously served time in his own country for a past crime. He was deemed by a judge "to no longer pose enough of a risk to be deported as he had been a law-abiding and working member of UK society for seven years". The headline is rather misleading.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As in the general debate on immigration, the > liberal left seems utterly incapable of separating > a 'worries about immigration' from 'fear of > immigrants'; whilst the Xenophobes and racists mix > up the two so do the 'liberals'. It is quite > possible to have concerns about immigration > without any fear of immigrants - many second and > 3rd generation immigrants do themselves! That's > the problem with not allowing/shutting down any > debate on this in the past, huge swathes of > Guardian readers just can't intellectually > separate them.... It's nonsense to say the immigration debate has been 'closed down'. But when Farage is talking about EU immigrants putting 'our women' at danger of sexual assault, what response can you give? Just as often it's 'the right' closing down legitimate criticism via constant cries of 'political correctness'. I agree with Louisa though that there is a sensible debate to be had in the middle somewhere. It's fair to talk about the impact of immigration without suggesting that immigrants are dangerous.

@louisa - if I've misinterpreted what you've said I apologise. It's a difficult one re. accusations of xenophobia. On the one hand it's not particularly helpful if you want to engage with people to accuse them of being fearful of incomers. On the other, it's pretty clear that there is a strong strand of xenophobia running through some of the debate and particularly the press coverage. We shouldn't pretend it's not so, for fear of causing offence.

Yes. and no.

I think a lot of people are put off by the fact that it's not heated though. It's the intention that the Peckham one will be.

Louisa, I do wish you'd stop implying that 'the working class' are all anti immigration. What right do you have to say this? It's equally untrue to suggest that it's only poorer people who are anti immigration (look at huge numbers of the Tory party for starters). I come from a working class family (as does my wife) and they certainly don't share your views on immigration causing the collapse of public services. My grandad (a shop steward who worked on the factory floor his whole life) married my grandmother, an Italian immigrant, after the Second World War. He would be appalled at some of the headlines in the Mail and Sun today, or Mr Farage's rhetoric.

Great post

Some of the BS from the Leave camp: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/07/eu-referendum-fact-check-david-cameron-leave-campaign-claims

In

I agree with James B. Southwark should enforce the planning regulations and not their aesthetic judgments. I certainly don't want the council deciding on what is or is not visually acceptable. The solicitors firm should know better.

Isn't a 'street art gallery' an oxymoron?

I'm not sure there is 'fuss' about round here, outside of this forum that is.

I think the idea of the poor 'bearing the brunt' of immigration is overplayed and is (mistakenly in my view) premised on the idea of immigration being 'a problem'. It's true that there is a concentration in some low skilled industries of overseas workers, but a lot of the reason for that is that there was demand for labour in some of those areas. There is little evidence of immigration driving down wages, or displacing 'native' workers, despite the rhetoric. Also, one can't ignore the fact that there are also large numbers of highly skilled workers in the UK, in industries such as IT and consultancy for example. People talk about the metropolitan London elite being removed from the realities of immigration, but I would argue the opposite. Londoners understand the realities of immigration very well - it is a diverse city, and that is why they are generally less hostile to people coming from abroad. Study after study, shows that it is those with the least direct experience of immigrants, who are the typically the most hostile to them. I understand that if you are languishing on a housing waiting list, one possible reaction is to blame foreigners, but I also think this is entirely wrong and should be challenged. Politicians have failed to provide decent, social housing and have sold off most of what we already had. It is convenient for them to blame this failure on immigrants, but we really shouldn't allow them to divert attention from their own culpability in this way.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My point remains, there are plenty of decent > non-bigoted arguments for Brexit.... Well I agree with that.

you've scoured this thread and concluded that's the biggest rant on here?!?

Root hasn't been ranting.

Yep