LadyDeliah

Er, maybe her partner should be the one learning to sew, they were his trousers.

The thing is First Mate, most domestic dogs will not be encountering dogs they are related to, so the family model of the majority of wolf packs does not equate to most domestic situations. Also the younger wolves in the wolf pack might not challenge the breeding pair for primacy, but they will compete with each other. I have fostered various dogs over the years and when a new dog is brought into the family, there is an initial period of jostling for the dominant position which then determines who eats first, who gets to sleep in which bed etc. Even if I stop the physically aggressive jostling for position, later, the more dominant dog will have still taken the prime position and the more submissive dog will have been pushed out. If both dogs are assertive, the jostling for the dominant position can become quite serious. If this is then taken outside and the dogs from my family meet dogs they do not know, they will co-operate and work as a group even when playing, but from what I've seen the hierarchy is still evident as the dog that has shown its dominance in the house will do things like stand between our dog and the stranger in a protective way, or push the less dominant dog out of the way to get the food from the old lady who feed the dogs, or get the first stroke etc. As for David Mech, he is arguing that there is no rigid hierarchy in wolves, but who said there was? What hierarchies are rigid? And so what if the pack leaders are related to the rest of the pack, that does not mean that the hierarchical family structure is not relevant. The hierarchical structures and pack co-operation developed as a means of not constantly fighting over resources as it improved the change of survival of the individual and these instincts can still be seen in domestic dogs, despite the fact they are no longer needed for survival. So if the instinct is still in domestic dogs, whether to a greater or lesser degree depending on breed etc, and domestic dogs constantly meet dogs they do not have a relationship with so have not yet placed into their hierarchy, there is likely to be some tension between the dogs until they know what the other dog is about. If your dog is balanced and if the other dog is socialised enough to read your dog's signals, then they should get along fine. I think that cases where the other dog's owner is practically hysterical with fear, or overtly aggressive, even a balanced dog might not react in it's usual way. Whether this is even related to the dominance and hierarchy of dogs, which I believe exists, I can't say, but I still stand by my point that owners who project their fear and hysteria to their dogs, need just as much work as owners whose dogs are aggressive.

Good posters. I wish they had big ones up in all parks.

First-mate, dogs have a natural inclination towards hierarchy, which is why confident owners can assume the position of pack leader and have otherwise dominant dogs, obey them. All of what you have said above is true, but I disagree with your analysis that dominance and submission/fear in dogs have no part to play in dog on dog attacks. As you say, however, the dominant dog would usually just put the more submissive dog in its place without having to actually attack them. The hierarchy would be established and both dogs would usually be happy with this. I think that problems can arise when a submissive/fearful dog gives mixed messages by being aggressive/baring teeth while at the same time exhibiting fear. This is something that the owner of a fearful/submissive dog can work with to limit the chance of attack by a more dominant dog who feels the need to assert himself. The issue of two dominant dogs trying to work out their hierarchy, especially as you say when a bitch is present, is a more obvious cause of concern, and can take quite a few meetings or a long period of time to settle. We had a German shepherd years ago who we couldn't let off the lead and had to muzzle. He didn't have a prey drive as such but had a massively heightened guard instinct. We took him to dog a psychologist for about 2 years but made very little progress with him. He was fantastic with our cats and children, but would attack other dogs and on two occasions people with little warning. In the end we had no choice but to get him placed with the RAF as a working guard dog, as he was just totally unsuitable as a pet. I think the issue of dog on dog attacks is a lot more complex than many people realise and that as well as working with aggressive dogs, dog owners who have a lot of fear, or allow their small dogs to dominate their house etc could also do with help in balancing their dogs too. I would also advocate neutering of all pet dogs, as like you say, First Mate, many of the problems between dogs are hormone driven.

FirstMate, I'm not making any kind of judgement in saying that submissive digs can invite attack, just a statement of fact. A more dominant dog will often attemp to assert itself over a submissive dog and if the dominant dog is also aggressive, that is more likely to lead to an attack than if the other dog is neutral or dominant. It is useful for owners and dogs to try to limit the likelihood of attack by working on fear issues, but that is not shifting blame from the aggressive dog to the submissive one, just like someone with a big house and no burglar alarm is not to blame if someone burgles their house.

The attack on Morph sounds awful and I sympathise but I think it's wrong to generalise about bull breed dogs. My dog is a staff cross and will chase squirrels, foxes and cats if he gets a chance but is great with my two cats and free range chickens, even letting them eat from his food bowl. So he has a strong prey drive but this does not extend to all 'prey'. He is also really good with other dogs even when the other dog acts aggressively towards him and even small dogs. He is really friendly with people and my granddaughter, who is 5 now, has been bossing him around since she was old enough to walk and talk. I think the reason that my dog is as good as he is, was that I had him castrated at the age of 10 months and he is neither submissive nor over dominant. Submissive or fearful dogs invite attack from other dogs and dogs will pick up the fear from their owners, so I think it is important for the owners to remain calm and confident, unless of course their dog is actually being attacked, then I think I personally would find it impossible not to intervene.

No, we need a Lidl.

Who pays for the Goose Green festival? If it's all of us through council tax then it should have more than to attract people than it did last time. No reason why they can't have 2 hour slots for different types of music to last all day. Should keep everyone happy.

Me too. I'm a big Freecycle fan.

Lovely

Kind of blatantly obvious really that dogwoman is winding up the stiffs lebara.

These guys are brilliant; Centre For Alternative Technology. They do short eco building courses and have loads of books and pamphlets for sale. I have been to visit the site loads of times since I was a kid and still love going there. They are very inspiring.

17 months for attempted murder is disgusting

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Crossings:- > > 1. To get to Icelands > > 2. to get to The Co-Op > > 3. to get to the Bishop > > 4. to get to the EDT. > > Southwark Council think of everyone. :)) > > Fox... Lol, yes perfect now.

You could use your flee fund to start your own small business.

I like it.

Sorry to railroad the thread onto chickens, but if you have a good natured dog you could probably do the same thing for rabbits.

Lol, he's very good with them. He's let them peck at the food in his bowl when we had the back door open. I secure the coop in the evening but I'm sure a concerted effort by a fox could break through, however my dog would have the fox long before it managed to get through the coop to the chickens. I think if you want to free range your chickens in London, a dog and dog flap may be the only solution, unless you have enough space to build a very secure enclosure.

I've got a dog and dog flap to keep the foxes off my chickens. Been ok so far (5 months).

Lishyloo, why? Do you have a hankering to join him?

bon3yard Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Its UV -no chlorine used as far as I've been told. > > > UV-Urine Vimto? Useless Vaseline? Ubiquitous > Vulva? I'm lost. ;-) lol

Smart Car and thousands of pounds worth of damage are hard for me to reconcile, seeing as they look like soft drink cans! Love the way you dealt with it though in your post and hope you find the guy who did it.

Can we have a dedicated section for places to eat with reviews etc?

Anyone who knows my interests(Left/Green/anti-capitalist/law) and finds them faintly interesting, could follow me if they had nothing better to do!

OMG Huggie's got form! I'm truly shocked, but secretly impressed!