James

Victor - if you sacrificed everyone's liberty because of a minority of offenders, there'd be no football matches, no clubs, no alcohol... the list goes on. All the dog owners I know would never dream of letting their dog foul without removing it.

M&S!!!!!!!!!! Veggie restaurant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No but it sounds like fun! I reckon it should be Pimm's sponsoring it though. Ricard is what French tramps drink

A petanque tournament? LOL! How delightful.

If only a straight man would come on here and admit to having kissed another bloke. That would be far more interesting!

Well said Huguenot. Besides which, those Porsche Cayennes are perhaps the most fugly-looking things on the road since the Austin Allegro. Only less loveable. Basically the Porsche Cayenne is a tank that does 150mph (why oh why?) and to hell with the environment. IMO ?25 congestion charge wouldn't be enough for these anyway, it should be at least ?100.

Sadly predictable that Boris would do this. Fair enough if the proposed charge was unfair, let's have a debate and tweak the rules. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater like this is totally irresponsible and smacks of typical Tory hypocrisy - we'll help our mates with big cars who vote for us and then pretend it's about helping families or small businesses or whatever... As ever they are totally out of touch. I still have yet to understand why any family NEEDS to drive a Chelsea tractor into Central London. Can someone enlighten me? Do we not have one of the most extensive public transport networks in the developed world?

"Give good" as in "give good xxxxx" (insert desired noun). Pretentious, moi?

As long as they give good cocktail (and don't play Mika) I am willing to forgive and forget

Following on from what Mockney said, has anyone noticed how mixed-race* kids never seem to be ugly - yet most of the royal family are horse-faced? Quite a good argument for mixing the genes up a bit I reckon. *or 'dual heritage' or whatever we're supposed to say

Sorry mum. I will apply for permission next time

Um, that comment was a JOKE. (Hello, McFly!!???) Oh dear...

She's sleeping her way to the top ;-)

Ugh yes, those Union Jack cushions are revolting

Kaiser Chiefs = fat Menswe@r

Forgive me CWALD, but you are as far from being a chav as I can imagine! I expect you will take that as an insult but I mean it as a compliment...

Oh I disagree there Sean. Personal experience is a precious thing and should not be brushed aside. I had a friend at Uni (up North) who once told me about how hard it was for her to get a cab home at night. I didn't understand; I'd never had this problem. It emerged that they were driving past her because she was black. I have lots of similar stories to tell from a gay perspective. If you're not black or gay or whatever you just wouldn't know about things like this.

CWALD, very interesting post. I admire your idealism, it's something which is sadly lacking in today's society. I would add though that one of the major evils of Thatcher was to sell the working-classes a kind of mindless individualism - the symbol of which being the whole 'right to buy' thing. (It wasn't her 'right to sell'!) She helped to play a part in the breakdown of society as a whole by setting different groups and interests up against each other. So now we all live in our own little ghettoes. How sad. >>"However as you are white you may never have any opinions, ask any questions nor in fact talk about black people except to apologise." Just worked out what you mean (dopey me). It does feel a bit like that sometimes...

I suppose part of the problem is that body language & facial expressions are such a huge percentage of communication that words alone are much more 'dangerous' in terms of how they can be interpreted. In case anyone has misunderstood, I'm not "diminishing the effects" of either racism or homophobia. To suggest that is a bit of a cheap shot, in my opinion. Sad that some people are so quick to attack someone when they haven't quite grasped what they are saying. Reread my posts - I can't be bothered to repeat it all here!

KB - don't understand why what I've said is upsetting. Sorry. To be honest I feel a bit ganged up on by people who don't actually understand what I'm saying. Sean - diplomatic and sage as ever. I think you have understood perfectly what I meant! Thanks for your generosity of spirit.

Rico - yes, I have been out with black guys before and it's not easy being black and gay!

Well, I am assuming that like me you would like the world to be a fairer place. That you don't want to live in a country where people are treated differently, have different life-chances or suffer harrassment because of their sex, age, sexual orientation or the colour of their skin. Is that right?

Um, actually the title of this thread is "homophobia compared with racism." It is not "homophobia is worse than racism." Read it properly! I am not "making issues" with black people. I am explaining waht I see as profound and interesting differences in people's experiences. Try reading my posts properly instead of letting rip with your knee-jerk attacks and you'll se that we are pretty much 'on the same side'!

Btw Kel what a silly remark to make!

I don't see what is so controversial about this. Please expand Muffin, I am interested to know your thoughts. For the reasons I described earlier, far fewer black people have broken into the middle and upper-middle classes. This is a historical factor. Privilege and wealth are entrenched and handed down in this country - just as poverty and social exclusion is, irrespective of race. The relatively small black middle class in Britain show this country up for its lack of social mobility in general. Put simply, if you're born into poverty in Britain you'll probably stay poor, whether you're white or black. Sad but true. Secondly, young black males' lack of role models. I think it's really sad that people won't address the cultural issues here for fear of being seen as un-pc. For as long as we ignore the elephant in the drawing room, too many black boys will continue to be drawn into a miserable life of crime. This is not racist; it is the very opposite in fact. We are talking about cultural and historical factors here that have their root in the evils of colonialism and slavery.