James

>>Isn't there a bigger issue in here which is that whilst homophobia is abhorrent and, I agree with you James, on a casual basis more widespread, gay men and woman aren't vastly overrepresented in the poorest, unemployed and imprisoned sections of our population in the way that black men and woman are... At the risk of stirring up a total hornet's nest (deep breath) I think that there are three factors at work here that you're missing: 1) Gay working-class people. A huge proportion of these people have to keep quiet about their sexuality as the estates of Britain are generally much less tolerant than the Guardian-reading terraces of East Dulwich. Don't forget that while race can't be hidden, sexuality often is. 2) Where black people ARE discriminated against, it's often CLASS and not race that's the main factor. (This doesn't make it any better, but is important) 3) The problem with young black males' lack of role models (see my post above about the black male crisis of masculinity). It's interesting to note that young black women's achievement at school and in the workplace is accelerating rapidly, leaving black boys far behind. I read an interesting study about the US recently which said that on average, black women high-flyers are soaring above white women (while there are less of them, the ones that break through are doing better and earning more). All this goes to show that there are complex cultural factors to take into account.

I think mine is me

Ooops, my apologies. Actually I did enjoy it thoroughly so it can't have ben that bad!

Btw I have not heard the word "n****r" for years but have been called a "faggot" or "battyman" by intimidating people on a number of occasions, most recently a few months ago. It was not pleasant.

I have noticed that often the most homophobic societies and cultural groups have a legacy of colonialism/imperialist subjugation (e.g. Jamaica, the Middle East). These are often the societies where women are treated terribly too. My theory is that where a society suffers through war and is enslaved or subjugated, its men suffer a terrible crisis of masculinity. Unable to asset their dominance and power, they take out their anger on their women and men who they consider to be "un-masculine." It's a form of self-loathing, taken out on others. Another factor is the fact that societies that have suffered in the ways I have spoken above tend to retreat into fanatical interpretations of religions such as Christianity or Islam - as if they blame their suffering for not being sufficiently religious. Finally, former colonies suffer a legacy of men going overseas to find work - creating broken families and boys who, in turn, grow up without an understanding of what it is to be a father - or how to be "masculine." This gets passed down through the generations. All too often they decide that carrying a knife, acting out gangster fantasies and attacking perceived "effeminacy" (including being gay) is what it takes to be a man. It's all so sad and so very ironic - especially given the strong family bonds of the traditional African tribes.

Absolutely Moos. This thing about "conscience" (for this, read "prejudice/dogma"). As in "my conscience forbids me." (I am allowed to treat you differently because of what I choose to believe in) What is all that about?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here but I think the word "f****t" is just as hurtful as the word "n****r" when used maliciously.

I once went to a dreadful gay pub called the STAG near Victoria station. I saw a drag act which was basically Anne Robinson in a Nazi Uniform, 7-inch heels and a black miniskirt screaming "YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK!" at everyone. Then she sang "These boots were made for walking" and left abruptly. Bizarre

I think so too. What's more the Government KNOW that smaller schools are much more effective, especially for children from deprived backgrounds. Sounds like a big whitewash to me. Like the Academy concept in general, a way of contracting out failure. "Hello Lord Harris, how do you do? Show me the money and do what you like, then it's not our responsibility if the school is crap. There you go, take the cash and run! Single-sex? Religious? Hairdressing Academy? Have it your way! Toodle pip."

I wanted to add this to my comments on Muffin's thread about the racist remark she heard on the bus but didn't want to be accused of brushing it aside or "having a competition". What's more, that thread has taken a different turn. But I think the following is relevant and quite scary, so worth quoting on this forum: >>Brendan Barber, TUC General secretary, will address London?s Congress House today on the institutional homophobia in British schools. ?Schools and colleges have done much to counter racism and sexism, the same cannot be said when it comes to tackling homophobia,? he will argue. ?Despite some notable exceptions, too many educational establishments are breeding grounds for the worst kind of casual prejudice.? Barber will substantiate his points with facts from Stonewall research, which shows that nearly every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered pupil is troubled by anti-gay harassment. ?Its shocking findings ought to act as a wake-up call to us all. Almost all LGBT pupils reported hearing homophobic abuse. ?No less than two thirds reported being the victims of bullying. And perhaps most alarming of all, one in six said they had been subjected to death threats."

Oh God. Will the last person to leave East Dulwich please turn out the lights...

Or less scary, depending on how you look at it.

Oh Rico, I'm finding myself agreeing with most of what you say. Especially the bit about some chavs being hot! Lol

Ratty, I take your point that we do seem to be in the midst of a 'spate.' But I wonder how many similar crimes went unreported before the media's current obsession? For example, during the Madeleine McCann feeding frenzy...

Is it just me or does anyone else think that the tabloids are trying to scare everyone about knife crime because they're fed up with Gordon Brown and are hoping the electorate will lurch a bit to the right in response to their fears? I have a sneaking suspicion that in a few weeks we'll be back onto binge drinking or dangerous dogs or whtever else is the flavour of the month, irrespective of the statistics.

In response to Keef's point, I reckon Big Brother does a huge disservice to all minorities. They always seem to choose a mouthy black woman with an attitude problem and a queeny, shallow bitchy gay man... talk about stereotypes. Black men are fetishised in the media (they all become dangerous, potent gangster rappers), just as gay men are emasculated (granny doesn't like the thought of bumming). I'm not sure which is worse... But I suppose for me the big difference is that most reasonably sane people agree that all races should be treated equally, whereas a significant minority treat being gay as a twisted lifestyle choice - as if we're doing it on purpose, just to be different or something.

God, those bisexuals are grumpy aren't they? What's their problem!? :))

>>there is no doubt in my mind that you view racist verbal attacks as nothing more than "flippant remarks! Um, no actually. My partner has suffered nasty verbal racial abuse on a number of occasions.. If this is the worst you've heard you have been comparatively fortunate! >>James - you have done wonders for gay rights. Keep it up. If you can't see the irony here, words fail me

Thanks Moos for your kind words. However I do think if the roles were reversed and I mentioned a casual homophobic remark overheard on a bus, then someone came onto a forum and said "Well I do sympathise but I have been racially abused in the street" we wouldn't be having this argument. It's all very telling! Just to remind people I deplore both racism and homophobia equally. But just as society is a bit further ahead at tackling sexism than it is racism, so it's a bit further ahead tackling racism than homophobia. That's not to say that racism isn't still a problem. Of course it is. My boyfriend has been a victim of racial abuse too. But he agrees that the homophobia he has suffered has been worse because it is deemed more 'acceptable' by society. You only have to open the pages of a tabloid newspaper to understand that. Only the other day the Sun was shrieking about the fact that a supposedly straight contestant from Big Brother was seen in a gay club. The days of the sun being overtly racist towards black and Asian people are (thankfully) behind us (but Roma people and Muslims may think otherwise!) however casual homophobia is still ok.

Oh come on, it's hardly like she's going into counselling! Get a grip...

I'm so glad that all these straight people know so much about what it's like to be gay. Thanks for sharing your expertise. You illustrate my point beautifully: there's no way you would patronise a black person on this forum as you are patronising me. But then, coming from (among others) someone who masquerades as a chav in order to be provocative, what did I expect?

I think it is a legitimate point that if we're talking about discrimination towards minorities, straight white middle-class males may not be best qualified to tell everyone how it is...

So the other people I'm talking to are of these minorities, are they Koolbananas? Missing the point... (on purpose I think)! And Keef, I make no apologies for putting it into perspective. I have had all kinds of verbal abuse for being gay - much, much worse than an ignorant, flippant remark like this. Quite telling how you're all clambouring to attack me as you attempt to look the most pc. Pretty much proves my point really!

Why so patronising Keef? Nice to know you are an expert on racism and homophobia. Tip: black people and gay people might know a little better than you on this subject, having personal experience. Just for the record my boyfriend is mixed race. I'm glad that I am supposed to be flattered by the emasculating, banal stereotype that gay men are "stylish and all that." This contributes to the idea that all gay men are flippant, materialistic and shallow so thanks very much for that Keef. And with regard to your suggestion that "it's not a competition" i think it's entirely relevant to put things into perspective. Your knee-jerk response only convinces me even more.

Take your point(s) and I do sympathise with Muffintop to some degree. However I do think it's an inescapable fact that we are further along the tracks with regard to racial equality than we are with equality towards people who are gay. You wouldn't be allowed to use a racial slur on the radio, for example, whereas the use of the word 'gay' to mean rubbish is commonplace - particularly from that nasty idiot Chris Moyles. The comment directed at Muffintop is pretty mild compared to the abuse I've had to put up with over the years. If someone said I was "pretty fit for a gay boy" I would probably be flattered!