????

I'm not some anarcho-syndicalist Sean. State as is sovreighn states stepped in to guarantee and underwrite their banks - juries out on this still but looks to have probably worked (not in Ireland though). Part of the reason it has worked is because the state(s) have also said ok we'll address our ubnsustainable spending going forward and dramatically.... that was part of the step in, and if that fails we get credit crunch part 2 Big bureacratic expensive state responsible for nearly everything is something entirely different, I still belive in a central govt etc, etc.

Yup. That sort of debt is needed for Capital Structural things. Like a road, a hospital, an aircraft carrier, a cross-rail project, a new school...it's a sort of mortgage. But getting debt for an open ended cheque to pay for the HE for a generally privelliged but significant section of the population is like getting a mortgage to pay for a gardener. The debst got too big, people don't want to lend it anymore without a huge premium or asking what the long term plans are. As I say, there ain't no money tree for any of this if not we could avoid the nasty pesky markets and actuallly in reality most sovreaighn debts is with other countries. The debt issue was alawys there and growing the f*ck up by global financial institutions has just made everyone have to face it now...it was coming in one way or the other at some point soon. That's what happens when staes vastly out spend their income on top of massive debt already - the big state loved of the left is finshed IMO, non politicl point just reality of economics.

Though the usual suspects seem utterly incapable of comprehending this

because in the longer term, and this is the real issue for state spending beyond the immediate budget concerns, the loans or whatever we call them being paid back start to kick in on the finances and go off book or whatever, If not without a massive improvemnet in tax take the markets (*boo hiss exit stage left), where, and sadly not the money tree, we get our debt to pay for all this, look at our spending commitments and think that's not sustainable and either stop lending or charge more, living beyond your means gets to bite you in the end and that's what most of the western world is finding anytime soon......

Tarot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Dont invite loud ,agressive,opionated people at > your Christmas celebrations. > Let them grind their axe,babbling to any other > idiot who shares their views. That's the Xmas Forum drinks buggered then

Well we put them, and those that wouldn't benefit from Higher Education (Directly, not in terms of employees), into debt by the other way. And given that an independent commsion and actual real MPS who have looked at the books have reluctantly gone against a manifesto commitment not I suspect because they are malluable,naive tory dupes but out of a sense of reality, it beats two slackers conjecturing on the Internet.

Nope we're not. Tough as that is. So we have to think of different ways of funding, which is why Labour originally set up an independent commission, whose reccomendations the governemnt has now acted on with some watering down. Your idealism and sentiment is noble and completley impractical. Let m know when you can suggest how we fund a decent society going forward...until then our realists will have to swallow accusations of selfishness etc from those with now no practical alternative - my 3 kids are state educated and will continue to be so it will effect me big time. I don't want to grow up in state that's gone bust that's especially disatrous for us all and the poor more than the rich.

100

I think a reasonable number of people teaching our kids don't have a proper formal degree actually ...but you need a functioning healthy economy and a state proeperly funded and financed to pay for all of it and demographics and technology means that the bills getting bigger just to stand still and what we pay now is unsustaianble going forward as a huge amount of it is paid for by loans. No money tree yet so making state spending susutaianable for the benefit of us all is a tough but needed discipline. You need bankers and estate agents tax revenues for that....until we find that money tree.

They're broken. Fix them and they can go back to 70 years of poweless nothingness. Bloody idiots, silly them having to actually govern and make tough decisions and get a shot at Electoral Reform. Bring back Jeremy Thorpe I say.

Well they've taken up the recommendations of an independent enquiry set up by a Labour Governemnt to look at filling the unsustainable funding of HE...not a bad mandate and one Labour seem to be ignoring/avoiding. When we invent the money tree that pays for first rate education, health etc then let me know, until then I'm happy supporting a coalition which is making some very tough decisions to maybe stop our economy, and with it some sort of semblance of some sort of welfare state, going down the drain. The opposition to this is largely unrealistic and negative with little else suggested, Ed Milliband needs to let us know what he'd be doing sooner rather than later if he wants millions of x Labour voters (that includes me) to even contemplate coming back. Unfortunatelty, for the mob, they need us non-shrieking, non demonstarting, non-reliving the 80s back in millions and they're miles away from it at the moment, they just sound like protestors not anyone seeking to govern. I'm impressed by this coalition governemnt to date, thank god they are taking some action in extremley tough times rather than vacillating in the name of not upsetting anyone. Edited 'cos even I couldn't put up with the typos

Riots bring about change solely...hackneyed crap. Sometimes they do but do you want a list of violent protests including thoose that escalated into terrorsim and civil war that didn't bring about change, still haven't in many cases and arguably delayed change/reform in many...it'll be huge. Chomskyte rubbish Mockers. In this case it will damp squib away is my prediction.

er quite how will it cause change Sean? The Bill got passed last night. it's done and dusted. It's uncomfortable for the Govt... a bit (the violent protests probably helped them though) and especially for the Lib Dems, but it's gone now, it's 'probably' the most singulalry contentious thing they'll have to do and Labour hasn't come up with any alternative other than protes, and attack which makes them look like an oppostition rtaher than a govt in waiting. If there was an eklection tomorrow the LD would lose many seats largely to the tories...lot of noise ZERO affect as indeed did the Iraq protests as you said.

The time to be an , idealistic, unrealistic, anarchic, bourgoeis class warrior, 'scourge of the establishment' troskyte idiot is when you're a student surely? It's those that take any of it past their 25th year who are the morons. I was quite glad to see the 'yoof' can still rebel, aided by rent a mob no doubt.

Guardianistas

I think they were called a 'pair of useless fecking gobshites' Declan is that reserved for your true buddies?

Yup. I wasn't there.

Go and have a drink in Quilters in Billericay if you like this

:)) you don't have any need to know about 1960s UK politicians. The only Irish politician I know now are the two Brians memorably described as the pair of useless gobshites on RTE News last week

George not Gordon Sean - the Labour Party was pretty staunchly anti-europe until the 90s

Brendan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 'cause he wouldn't. Even if you're in your > twenties you can't just go and play a test match > without being in-form and fit from playing > competitive cricket regularly. > > The idea is great though. Did anyone tell Mike Gatting?

Don't mention his testimonial

You're Norman Bite your leg Hunter, Sean has to be Johhny Giles...

Oh come on it's not all about childhood fun with siblings. I am a bloke and 18 months older than my sister and when we hit our teens this was a mutually benificial relatiosnhip and age gap, in terms of us both getting off with each others mates. ;-)

I see you more as group of cynical old pros...a Revie era Leeds United :))