SeanMacGabhann

Antijen. Anyone who travels down the road you mentioned

Green and blue? Which you dismissed for so long and so harshly? Good stuff. Im yanking your chain of course. Hence the keef reference. (Richards not our k... Oh it gets so confusing)

I'm not saying they shouldn't or can't. They can. If they want But it's in the interest of us all if we can understand how they made it back.

Now you're talking http://chaangthairestaurant.com/Images/tsingtao.jpg And none of that western Coors nonsense!

and it's to annaj's credit that she does that but one CAN go too far down that road

bunch of wine heathens throw some plonk into a glass of ribena and be done with it. Nothing wrong with that - just don't drag everyone down with you jah - and I can't put this more strongly. You saying sainsbury's have some good offers is like Simon Cowell saying his new favourite is like 3 times the group Rolling Stones ever were yeah - I said it (you CAN buy some good wine at Sainsbury's it's true. But why would you when you can get even better wine locally for cheaper)

That because we believe it will is interesting. Belief is interesting. I agree with you. And yet, and yet I'm struggling not to invoke Godwin's here. Belief can and should be a curiosity which leads to knowledge. Belief for it's own sake - people going "well I believe you are wrong!!!! And no evidence will change my mind" scare the shite out of me

Really Annaj?? That sounds very very close to agreeing with people who swallow a dilution of a dilution of a dilution (times near infinity) of a memory and claim it makes them better That there are huuuge unchartered waters between the mind and body I don't dispute. Learning more I'm all for. I just don't think chinese medicine is trying to learn more about anything. It is what it is. Or am I missing the vast tracts of ongoing research in this area? Honest question: do people in the west take it because deep down they think it has "mystical" properties? I like people pointing out western medicine failing people and encourage more of the same tho. It helps raise the bar. But I don't see any throwing babies out with bathwater. Medicine works or doesn't. if it works because of it's properties then let's have more. That's how western medicine works no? If it works for other reasons let's figure out a bit more but remaining sceptical is fine I don't need to give YOU examples of woo versus medicine but you seem to be stretching to accomodate a point here. Few people go for a tooth extraction with herbal medicine. Many mothers want to have natural births but when it goes wrong they bemoan the hospital not treating them quickly enough. More research into acupuncture and such? I'm with you and Goldacre. But I can't see people deciding a critical moment as the perfect time for that research I trust drug companies as much as I trust herbalists. IE not at all. I trust years of results. If a drug company pushes a new drug you won't find me signing up for trials. But if they mess up they will be held accountable.

well hello happyhelen I like the cut of your jib Basically if anyone WANTS to obsessively track burglaries in London they can, and good luck to them. They will find that burglary rates in major cities are huge. And even then sometimes they spike. Some of those have known this from the year we moved here. Jumping up and down going "we have to do something" isn't actually the same is achieving anything. And I say this as someone who has been burgled and will be burgled again. Possibly tonight Im not happy about it. But I'm not oblivious to it's existence either

If I wasn't a bloke... but Rosie No diggety no doubt - but is the conclusion that ignorance is bliss?

and when they come. Don't forget that But what people call out for in despair or otherwise isn't proof of anything other than not wanting to be alone in the universe now is it really?

Sue ? I don?t see many people arguing with many of those points. Several people have pointed out the overlap between Chinese and Western medicines use of herbs and several people have pointed out that much western medicine doen?t work either But then I don?t think even western practitioners claim they have all the answers ? but they are constantly testing and refining products to improve efficacy. Whereas some herbs in a jar will remain that forever pretty much

I didn't say the Bible doesn't mention real places Ridgely - I just said that doesn't make it in any way special. Lot's of books mention real places. Harry Potter mentions Kings Cross - but it doesn't make the bit about the flying buses true Ditto the bible mentioning babylon, or some real people

I'm not not taking medicine to suffer! I'm just not taking it because it doesn't do any good so why bother

Yep - because before the bible, killing people and stealing stuff - that was all legal wasn't it? Oh no, hang on.. Still at least the Bible was carefully translated just the once and doesn't have any competing translations. Oh no, hang on... Harry Potter makes reference to real places too - it doesn't make it literal. or literate

at least TRY and keep up appearances Mick!

lady MacGabhann sometimes foreces a lemsip down me (that has paracetemol doesn't it?) can't say it does anything to relieve anything (you are talking to a guy who only registered with a doctor in his 40s after all)

I?m unlikely to fund any research or conduct trials myself Narnia, no. But having read about it and observing for myself, the balance of proof lies with shops selling me products (when I have a cold I don?t bother with any medicine, I just rest up until it?s gone. It?s not just chinese medicine I think is often unnecessary)

good spot Rosie - and I rather suspect that his kids help HIM withthe game rather than the other way round

This bit maybe?

Acupuncture has a place in my heart ? when I was young it just looked the coolest thing ever But yeah.. bobbins too. Well maybe not complete bobbins ? it?s like spending those thousands on the beach holiday.. pampering yourself and believeing it?s doing you good are likely to have a positive effect

All true Jeremy, but the crucial bit for me is that ?tested? bit I?m sure there are many medicinal benefits to the products they sell but let?s be honest ? the main selling point of these stores in the UK is the sense that Big Pharma is only a money-making-complex and that TCM is somehow imbued with a purity and mysticism, untainted by such concerns. Which is nonsense If someone is cured by chinese medicine then they would have been cured by any other medicine. If they have tried other medicine and got nowhere but chinese medicine worked then that?s probably them getting better anyway and coincided. It?s like people suffering a cold for 4 days and taking medicine and not getting better, but when they went to a herbalist they were much better. Yeah, and if they hadn?t have gone they would be much better anyway because the cold?s time had come and gone

It?s no ted max peckhamboy, but it made me smile

I?m not advocating full-scale socialism here btw. Just a little bit more balance in the debate. The whole ?tories fix the economy, labour wreck it? is way too simplisic