SeanMacGabhann

And these are problems now are they? I think not.

Apologies if I'm conflating things but I havnt invented any arguments to win them The ffs have been accused by several people in here of being over emotional and therefore dismissible. You may not have been one of those people in which case sorry again No the wheel was necessary but it sure changed things for the better for everyone. These changes will affect nobody in any way, other than to piss off a workforce. That's just not good management and helps nobody

So, not emotional at all then.

I haven't read much left wing dogma on here. And I'm willing to bet a large number of the strikers voted for the Tories this time But as I've already mentioned, this union has adapted to the changing world several times in the last decade without striking. Thousands of jobs went, new work was taken on and all without striking. So they don't strike me as a militant bunch. And nor am I. I have had to manage truculent teams if wasters after mergers and know the mentality all too well So, in this case only, it strikes me the management read a book on management and how to demonstrate you are top dog only for it to backfire and they won't back down. That's their choice and their right. But it doesn't mean we have to support them regardless, JUST because they are management. I have read the proposals many times. Well, you keep posting them after all. I agree with you Huguenot they appear to be sensible. That doesn't make them necessary tho. They don't necessarily fix anything. And this union with no record of striking despite the previous changes appear to find them a step to far. That's a point worth listening to

But if you are irritated and wish to claim reason as your friend then Isn't going to help as it doesnt represent my position or that of the firefighters But let me ask you why you are so willing to dismiss the views of those doing the job regardless of how inarticulate you find them? You constantly quote how much safer and healthier the proposals will make everyone but I don't see any evidence to suggest the job is not being done safely and healthily. And unions are usually a stickler for those factors

Catchy slogan that

Mr carnell. You're up

But it is a recurring theme of those arguing against the strikes isn't it? Management must be free to manage, we as taxpayers, efficiencies etc. I'm just surprised Noone has a target figure for this amount of aggro

I mean for the proposed london changes. Just so we know how much better off the public purse might be Marmots man. Your question about what should management have done is impossible to answer as none of us are involved. But just as I maintain the fighters shouldn't strike i maintain the management shouldn't have ultimatumed. If you ballot your staff and 97% say no to something (an something that looks to be reasonable to outsiders like us) then there must be a better way. I am pretty amazed how something which interested nobody weeks ago has seen so many people come out against the firefighters tho I'm not for preseving status quo for it's own sake and I see sense in looking to revise practices. But nor do I support picking a fight for it's own sake, to bully staff under the guise of the current financial climate. This union has without striking, reduced staff numbers by the thousands. They don't sound Luddite to me. Not so far anyway. That doesn't make them angels or progressives and I'm not completely convinced by them either. But in this instance I'm surprised by the vehemence against them for what seems like small beer.

Have i missed some numbers then? How much, in the current financial climate, will management be saving?

No but you will wait for a lot longer for a worse bus with a worse paid driver, for a lot higher fare. Not sure how that is progress If the other cities firefighters are sooo happy I wonder what the deal is with London. I know what you have said but it still doesn't stack up. It could be because London is a completely different city to anywhere else, vastly bigger in size and commuting distance for one You know what tho. I no longer care. You stand to gain nothing out of these changes, literally nothing but you are acting like some kind of rabid consultant personally responsible. I'll say one last time, I'm not completely on either side, but as im not part of the process and only have access to whatever snippets get chucked into the public domain without context I'm not going to jump onboard the bandwagon of anti fighters

Deregulation of buses was pushed through throughout the country, apart from London London has a significantly better bus service Just saying, the rest of the country "accepting" something doesn't make it right

Yeah dj. Before the current dispute i rememberr you coming on here all the time pleading with everyone about the firefighters and how much could be saved and how unreasonable they were being Im suggesting it was no big deal to any of us. It still isn't. We are adopting positions as "tax payers" without being involved ourselves. The letter you link to mentions one report from 2006. That could have contained many other points and issues. I'll say it again, a decent management team could implement reasonable proposals easily. This lot can't. It seems obvious to me there're is more to it than meets the eye

You can keep posting it and I will keep agreeing with much of what it proposes. That isn't the same thing as being involved and knowing all of the details. And as i say when its presented as an ultimatum, it is wise to take a pause and think whats the catch. But you cant figure out the catch if you have a gun to your head

Regardless of the sound (or otherwise) logic for changing shift patterns... If someone says sign this or you are sacked, I'm going to take umbrage. If the union is strong enough to stand up against that mentality then good. The fact that the rest of us don't have similar security makes it sound like the politics of envy when people complain about the firefighters Genuinely and honestly i think new shift patterns could be implemented without fuss with a better management team. And people who care about any service should worry that such incompetents have fumbled do badly (I've already posted my thoughts on why the ffs shouldn't strike anyway, but this is the other part of my thoughts)

Its pretty remarkable that this happened after a solid week or two of widespread pushing from airlines and some travelers for finally relaxing the existing security measures I totally agree. Intelligence is a good thing. The whole theatre of security at airports is a sham But then lots of people say the feel safer. Cant win

I'm not even saying its a bad thing, but weighing up both sides and reading between the lines and looking at the detail... Its not black and white

Errr... Because it suits their agenda?

There hasn't been 5 years of negotiation at all. The idea has been mooted a coup,e of times but never addresSed So when people began to thrash it out properly, or expected to, instead of a negotiating point it was just bam! Fait accompli

I think you are projecting things onto the FFs that aren't there h. I know it appears that way from media reports but i think they do understand the changing world and are willing to sit down and negotiate a path. This management team are the only impediment to that from what i can see. Even you agree they have handled it badly. Being ultimately correct doesn't mean you can avoid the path itself. Going in with an ultimatum is their fault and they have no one to blame but themselves. If any union didn't stand their ground on that basis alone what would be the point of them? (and yes i know, I know...)

Plus, what kind of management team goes in with an ultimatum. A not very good one I think the firefighters can be reasoned with but this management team don't sound up to it

I just heard as well. Gutting news

Sounds a bit elitist to me Lady macGabhann attended a non-top university, got a first, and went on to get the job she had planned for the whole time - one she wouldn't have been able to get without that degree. Thinking about it, many of the people I met from that time all did exactly that - had there not been a push for more education, they would have ended up in lower paid McJobs up north. So yay Labour, yay the taxpayer and yay non-elite universities That doesn't mean there aren't many pontless degrees knocking around - but if I was an employer I would be looking at what the qualification was, not the source university

This is all well and good, but I'm warning youse all that you are still coming to the EDF-drinks-Thank-You-To-Georgia on Friday week

boothby at the ivy? im so there