legalbeagle

Huguenot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > leaglebeagle, your comment only repeats a question > that has already been posed and responded to - > recently at that. > > Well done for demonstrating that you haven't even > bothered to read the thread before launching an ad > hominem attack on me. > > *raises glass* Oh stop getting your knickers in a twist. The last five pages have consisted of nothing but people repeating themselves whilst ignoring everyone else. You've just noticed?!

I don't need to argue about whether I like you Huguenot. I do like you. So end of argument. This is not a personal attack, it is a point being made about the style of this thread. I don't like arguments that aren't atually debates because those engaged aren't listening. Which, like it or not, is how both you and DJKQ are appearing to some of us. I'm sure that someone as intelligent as you knows that how you say something is almost as important as what you say. Further, I am not anti management, and I am not paranoid. That's just something that you throw into this debate every time someone disagrees with you. Rarely have they actually shown either trait in their posts. In fact if you had listened to what I have been saying you would know that I don't support strikes. And if you had listened to others on this thread you would have heard plenty of reasons why your views are not necessarily completely and utterly right in every respect. It's just that, since you have no respect for those alternative views, you've rubbished rather than listened to that evidence. Doesn't mean I don't like you though. So don't go getting all flouncy again.

And all of those improvements made whilst working the current shift system......... It ain't broke. Why are we fixing it?

Thanks Keef. (and yes, I am a bird!)

Both DJKQ and Huguenot seem to think that they know better than people who have done the job in question for years, and that level of self confidence always amazes me. We are all entitled to an opinion, but when faced with a debate about, oh I don't know, building bridges, I'd be inclined to think that an engineer might know a wee bit more about it than me. I'd certainly do a passing impression of listening to them and considering what they have to say. Just in case an entire career's worth of experience on their part taught me a thing or two. Statistical evidence is only part of a story, easily manipulated and open to interpretation. And that's all those of us who haven't done the job being debated have to go on. I've advised famous clients several times on matters that dominated the press at the time. And I was amazed at the difference between what was actually going on, and what was accepted in the public domain as going on. We should all be a bit careful about total and utter conviction that we are absolutely right. That's not a discussion. It's a tedious and self important monologue. You might as well stand in front of a mirror and just keep talking.........

expat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Click on the ':' next to 'Posted by' thatt will > mask those messages... NEVER HAVE I NEEDED THIS HELP MORE THAN TODAY. GRRRRRRRRRRR.............

I think I'd be more inclined to agree with a rise in tuition fees if the standard of education received was higher. It seems to me that at the moment pretty much anyone and everyone goes to University, and some of the qualifications received don't seem to be very well respected or lead to a good job. If they were well respected qualifications that did lead to a good job, and there was a proper structure in place for repayment of debt (?x per month when you earn ?x per year sort of thing)then I don't think a debt repayment of ?27/36k would be impossible. Painful perhaps, but not impossible. Instead, we now seem to aspire to send everyone to a University, as though a degree were the only worthwhile thing to have, and job prospects afterwards seem wildly unpredictable. I imagine the increase will put some people off. But perhaps some others would be better suited to a different kind of job training qualification in any event, and we should certainly be giving that kind of training/apprenticeship more respect.

Well perhaps they do somewhere, but I don't know what it is. And yes it is a recurring, and frankly depressingly uninspiring theme.......

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I mean for the proposed london changes. Just so > we know how much better off the public purse might > be > Well we don't know the answer to that. Management have not admitted that the shift changes are a prelude to reduced fire cover at night, it is as assumption based on a pattern shown in other parts of the country. Since they haven't admitted it, and we don't know how much of a reduction is planned, it follows that we don't know how much would be saved.

By reducing fire cover at night you mean? I don't know the number - but I can try to find out from West Midlands Fire Service if you are interested.

I think it is inevitable that LFB will be working that shift pattern in less than a year. There have, indeed, been many persuasive arguments put forward as to why they should. The trouble is that they are not truthful arguments, or rather, they are not the whole picture. A while back the West Midlands Fire Service went through exactly this process, and the inevitable change in shift patterns occured. They are, as we speak, now going through phase 2 of changes, which is to reduce fire cover during the nights in the West Midlands. This is the real point of changing the night shift pattern. This is what the firefighters in West Midlands feared at the time the shift patterns were changed, and they have been proved right. What was billed as an improvement in efficiency was actually a cost cutting exercise that, in their view, puts the public at risk. I have no issue with cutting costs and reducing fire cover at night per se. If as a population we wish to save money in this way, so be it. I would, however, prefer to see that done in an honest and open way. If the desire is to cut fire cover at night, as has happened elsewhere in the country, then management should just say so, and we can have a proper debate about it. I have an issue with it being done covertly, in the guise of improving efficiency, whilst painting the firefighters as greedy, lazy, and in pursuit of self preservation. They are, in fact, worried about public safety. Forget the rhetoric of unions and management and just decide whether you really want a reduced night time fire cover, because that IS what will happen shortly after the shift system is changed. That is what has happened elsewhere, and it is now coming to London. If you don't mind, as you were. If you do mind, support the firefighters.

Thanks to Keef and Sean for saving me from losing my rag. Agree with you both. Signing off now for fear that I get cross again.

:-S

B)

>:D

Moflo, don't misunderstand. I'm a supporter of the Firefighters. I think that, somewhat sadly, some change is inevitable, but I really hope it doesn't compromise the safety of the public and firefighters. For what it's worth, I just can't see the sense in keeping firefighters awake at night. I think of them as a sort of insurance policy. They are there just in case. If there is a fire, they wake up and turn up PDQ and do their job. If there's no shout, they sleep. Seems sensible to me. Since they don't know whether there will be one shout, or ten, or none, they have to provide the same level of cover just in case. But they don't need to be sitting there, awake, for the sake of it. In this respect, they aren't like the police or nurses or factory workers on night shift, because those people actually have something to do during the hours they are at work. The firefighters don't. They can't do fire safety inspections, or drills, or training, or fitting smoke alarms for the public, at 3am. If there IS something useful they could be doing, I'd understand the need to keep them awake. I don't, however, like the idea of them striking. I wish they could find another way, though I confess I don't know what it is. I'm worried for public safety during a strike, but also for the firefighters, who might get too entrenched with the unions to negotiate. And they will have to negotiate in the end. I've never witnessed a strike that has ended with one side winning everything they want. If you have to strike, be respectful of those who choose not to. "Scab" is not a word anyone should be using. This is a democracy. Give others the respect you want to be shown when you exercise your right to speak out.

Im not commenting on BBB's views. I'm not saying BBB can't stand up for himself. I'm saying that kind of abuse in a PM IS bullying, whether or not it upsets the person it's sent to, and it's not acceptable. Let's have a grown up debate, shall we? We are all entitled to an opinion.

Not sure a witch hunt is helpful either Pearson. Just a sensible debate between grown ups would do me.

Very very very disappoiting to read that Bish Bash Bosh has had unpleasant PM's just for expressing an opinion. SHAME on you, whoever you were. BBB, I have no doubt you are big enough to take care of yourself, but that kind of BULLYING just makes my blood boil. And it's the kind of behaviour that turns these disputes in nasty personal battles that actually cannot be won. GROW UP whoever you were and take part in this debate properly.

Kbabe01 - that's really really sad. And it must be extremely upsetting for the firefighters, who must have tried so hard to save his life. I hope that at least none of them were hurt, it sounds like it was a serious incident.

I have a huge respect for Firefighters in London and around the country, and any profession where they put their lives on the line every time they go to work. I think that comments along the lines of "that's what they're paid for" fail to understand just now incredibly brave these people have to be. If nothing else, the lack of empathy shown in those comments is shameful. I know we all have to take the pain of the recession, and I'm not sure personally what I think of strikes as a general principle, but I do wish there was some way of doing this without giving the Firefighters a kicking. And I'd say the same about any emergency service. Let's remember that these jobs are all about public safety and your own protection. Anyone who has been in real need of their help will know they are grossly undervalued. OP, I don't know if I support the strike, but I do support the firefighters and I hope they find a way around dealing with their issues without too much heartache. Industrial action is bad for everyone.

Hey Tarot, you're a poet and you don't knowit!

[Oh ok then, I'll take the bait. Feeling scrappy today anyway.] Sheepdog, just grow a pair you big wuss! The only reason for ending a relationship in public is to try to stifle the other persons reaction so you get off lightly. Sit her down at home, say what you need to say, and take what's coming like a man. End of.

Things I have learnt: 1. Girls look good in red. 2. Baileys Gin and Kingfisher Beer are not a good mix. 3. Karter is an international man of mystery. 4. Hibbs can look glamorous even with a horrible cold. 5. Katie1997 has lived in a zillion different places but still can't find Dulwich Village. 6. Giggirl likes my new leopard ski shoes. Swoon. 7. Sean McG looks a teeny tiny bit like Tintin. I say that with affection though. I like Tintin. Oh and the Curry was good.

It is a bit. And it implies there's a choice....!