Sephiroth

3 weeks after the thread started and looking at the markets I think we can say that no - Rachel Reeves is NOT becoming the new Liz Truss Regular, garden-variety political missteps or "controversial" policy shouldn't be mistaken for the calamity of the last government - specifically under Truss

I dunno man no political party is going to be formed of people on the street, tapped on the shoulder, and asked “do you want to run the country? You’ll have to be elected and give up a lot for not a huge amount of money - fancy it?” political parties - grown up ones anyway - will be a self-selecting wonkish bunch. I’m ok with that. Doesn’t make them “elite” I often think English people just love nothing more than to suffer. And complain about suffering. But like it really.

I see Heidi Alexander’s appointment means the entire cabinet is state-educated for first time in history thats not nothing - especially if you are a “they are all metropolitan elites - all of em!!!” Type

this is mental - you are literally describing a completely different way of dealing with a situation - and claiming "it;s all the same". Because labour say "were not like them" and prove it by doing something that's the complete opposite of their predecessors If wrongdoing comes to light, a party can either try and brush it off and ignore it - or deal with it immediately which do you want? what would make Labour look good in your eyes in this situation?

Now it can be true that it will be easy to find people who believe either of those things, that doesn't make both those things true Objectively - a situation is handled very differently by two different governments. If some people decide to say "proof they are all the same" then we should be pointing out that that is wrong - not hand waving it away as something that people can choose to believe or not believe If the people who want to believe "they are all the same" have some better idea - eg Reform? - then they will have to have to explain how that party is packed with criminals so how does that improve things. "They are all the same" is usually code for "I don't really want to think about anything, I just want what I want" that, and whilst I find him infuriating in many matters, I can't see Starmer of all people reversing this decision.

It's not ideal - but can you not see the difference between how the PM acts in this instance versus how previous PMs acted? To me it underlines the difference between this govt and previous

Well she has resigned - so it makes a change from the weeks of denial before inevitable but if we are digging up offences from decades ago, can we revisit Badenoch hacking an MPs account?

“So your next line of attack is so start making it personal, carry on, eventually you'll get thrown out of here. ” how was my post a personal line of attack? how will I get thrown off? Will there be a petition? put the blunderbuss down, stop firing indiscriminately and try and address the points people make if you jump on a typo and someone does the same don’t fire off another round - try and understand why that typo reference was made But if you feel I’ve gone too far, do click the report button. Let’s just hope admin isn’t part of the liberal elite and doesn’t action eh? That would be just typical

Must you be so humourless Jester? you jumped on someone for a typo, so he was just playing with you "t's Jazzer, not Jezzer." "Why does Starmer continually blame the last Govt, now for immigration figures, can't he get on with the job in hand instead of using the same old line blaming the Conservatives, it becomes boring, " a - because the tories continued to use the same line on labour 14 years after the 2010 election b - because it has the benefit of being true whilst opposition try and paint him as someone who should have fixed everything in 5 months when they hadn't done any of it in 14 years Someone is a joke here but I doubt you will ever see it More seriously tho - he isn't WRONG to blame the last govt but he doesn't convince that he is going to do anything different Prime Ministers of any hue decreeing "we will drastically reduce the numbers" begs the question "how?" (assuming that you think it's a priority - I don't really - But I get that many people get SUPER angry about this) But UK would need to spend a lot of money setting up proper border posts and processing centres, move genuine arrivals thru quickly and work with other countries (again - major problem of Brexit and nothing Starmer says he will concede any red lines - so good luck with that) - National ID cards for everyone would also help track arrivals but English people seems to be dead set against those What won't work is leaving the ECHR, throwing red meat to right wingers or cod-schemes like Rwanda

Think he confused you with me RD

The long-standing narrative "I wish the politicians would treat us like grown-ups" doesn't stand up very well when exposed to reality

well yep - all of that is true and Labour boxing themselves in on Brexit red lines is counter to their growth narrative as well (albeit semi-understandable given what would happened to the media and likes of Jazzer if they are even perceived to soften them) choppy waters ahead - but that would be true of any govt picking up the pieces and in no way validated the petition hysteria

Ah yes. British leaders saying bad things about foreign leaders which is why jazzer was so outraged by truss calling macron an enemy oh wait

Several people have tried to point out the inconsistencies in your argument. Diablo rouge being most recent Try and address the points he makes rather than playing chicken licken

Whoooosh

"The above merging of my posts in response to Sue and to Jazzer have been done by the forum system, so there's no point in my trying again to separate them" soo aggravating. - has caught me out a few times. I get what the software is trying to do but it really messes with the flow of posts

again - all of this is inherited - but where was the outrage from you before Labour were elected? How is it down to a new Labour govt that the far right have a massive boost? I think there is a lot of accurate points In this post - but ultimately the response to that (and I'm not accusing you of responding differently - but we can see how others are) should be " huh - they are finding their feet lets see what the next reshuffle brings" - rather than millions of people demanding an immediate election on spurious grounds of "damaging the economy" when those same people accused likes of me of "project fear" over Brexit

" agree as well but Labour are losing control of the narrative on every single policy they have announced." I think this is the key point - but maybe not in way we would agree on. I disagree they are in a hole not dissimilar to where Tories found themselves - that govt had a largely supportive media but had very little talent left after the Johnson post Brexit purges, had no idea what it WANTED to do much less how and just drifted and drifted I think Labour have a good idea of what they want to do and have enough talent to do it So why the bad comms? When you have most of the media and the likes of Musk lined up against you is it even worth pretending they won't try and spin every bit of comms you might produce? I agree they need to be better - but I'm not sure even a comms wizard will outpace the 2024 world of twitter/x and British media. So I wonder if they are ploughing on regardless with what needs doing and trusting people to notice results. I don't really know but I don't think it's a simple as "Labour bad at comms"

I took the JSON into Alteryx and ran some tools against it - but I did make that mistake of counting 4 rows per country instead of the 3 But materially you were still essentially correct "Whatever the true situation the fact that this petition is getting such traction suggests the government are struggling to cut through - which they are." there will be be some headlines no doubt - and in no way am I claiming Labour are perfect - I disagree with them on several issues and as I say I didn't even vote for them. But unlike others I think they are doing a better job than headlines suggest and I would argue - strongly - that the levels of dissatisfaction are down to : 1 - unrealistic voter expectations. Given global headwinds there are no easy fixes - so sure you could throw every govt out at drop of a hat if you are an unhappy electorate but you should also be aware that you will be making things worse and it will be your fault 2 - there are several actors (Musk and his obvious targeting) and a portion of the population (the worst elements of the express/mail readership, many reform voters etc) who, as shown by [insert high scoring scrabble name here] are barely in touch with reality, easily led and extremely vocal and angry - constantly I think MOST of the electorate, either now or in time, will accept there are no easy answers but are keeping a watch on how Labour handles these challenges - but won't be signing any petitions like this (imagine if the petition DID topple the govt and an election was held and someone else got in - only for another petition to do the same thing all over again. rinse and repeat every few months forever. Complete madness) "The Democrats tried that in the US election and it backfired massively - why? Because swing voters and some who you would expect to be die-hard Democrats voted for Trump because they weren't hearing anything of substance from the Democrats about the things that mattered to them." See as time goes on I reject this more and more - because every allegation thrown at Democrats (old, infirm, lacking substance) can be thrown at Trump (and then some, plus without the dangerous sides) - so it can't be just that. I'm inclined to lean more towards enough of US voters not wanting a woman in power - one time Dems put a man against Trump they won

hmmm - I can see the open state field but if I look at the data.attributes.signature_by_country fields I get most coming from USA The constituencies are all 2million+ UK constituencies But I can't link the sig by country to the constituency in most cases nope you are correct - I misplaced a variable and was looking at why USA was so high - when the Uk was obvious answer Ok - so my general point that a lot of these sigs are coming from outside UK is incorrect. My bad. Cheers Ian (Reform got 4 million+ votes so we could expect a similar number to sign petition maybe)

The 2 ways I checked (and I'm open to correction on this - I could be wrong) 1 - the breakdown by county https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=700143 doesn't appear to match the headline number in any close way 2 = The petition data link https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143.json seems to have a suspiciously high number of non UK entries (although this ABOUT section may be relevant as well The data shows the number of people who have signed the petition by country as well as in the constituency of each Member of Parliament. This data is available for all petitions on the site. It is not a list of people who have signed the petition. The only name that is shared on the site is that of the petition creator.) can someone else try because I'm done with this guy

this still doesn't pertain to current situation in any way - and burying your head in YouTube videos and blogs which sound "arfentic" by quoting ancient script doesn't mean what you think it means

yep - there were people - but not jazzer And as I've noted before to lose one PM mid government is unfortunate - but to lose 2 - and with such catastrophic consequences should have led to a GE around time of Sunak appt - there is a constitutional argument to be made at that point - at what point is it the same broom if you change the handle 3 times and the head 4 times And I've also said if Labour were to overthrow Starmer (and in the sane real world there is no chance of that happening) and replace with someone like Corbyn then I would argue there is a case for an election there too

yep totally stable remember when Johnson messed things up and was about to be replaced - were you calling for an election then? what is the purpose of posting all that Magna Carta bobbins - how is it in any way pertinent in 2024 to a newly elected government - you are just spouting nonsense you read and see on YouTube - you have nothing resembling a case or a point the electorate for example may well change their minds. - and they can express that at the next general election (unlike the debacle that was the Brexit referendum for example)

pretty much everything in this post is why after 14 years the last govt were chucked out - don't you get that? if you don't want an economic crash you shouldn't have voted for Brexit (and Labour shouldn't be sticking so much to their red lines either) I'm basically saying everything you say is hypocritical and again - have a look at the countries where most of those petition signers are coming from- it's not the UK