jimmy two times

Lozzyloz my logic is not flawed. The bombing of Hiroshima did achieve it's ultimate end, which was the immediate surrender of Japan and an end to the loss of American life. This was the objective of the Americans. The Japanese may have surrendered eventually but many thousands of American lives would have been lost in the battles to take each island in the march to take Tokyo. As appaling as the loss of Japanese life was it was simply a case, in the eyes of the Americans, as us or them. And really this is what war boils down to. There really are no rules of engagement and it's naive to think otherwise, although I don't mean to suggest that you are naive. I think you are probably just a person with a very healthy moral compass.

Casualty of war.

If you are dyed in the wool Labour you cannot ever vote Tory. You must show loyalty to the cause in the same way you would do to your football team even if they had a crap manager and disloyal players.

Lozzyloz that is not applying the same logic. Plus you also intimated that my logic also advocated genocide. Dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima could be considered a war crime because a huge amount of innocent people were killed. However, it did result in the total capitulation of Japan. I would not classify torturing an enemy combatant to extract useful information as a war crime. Torture is a very effective tool. Perhaps not in it's crudest form, but psychological torture is probably the most effective. Either way it's torture.

I have always voted for Labour and always will. I come from an Irish blue collar family and it's been bred into me from a very young age.

Whilst I accept that's what they said I don't think the CIA would ever reveal their true tactics.

I guess that's why many cyclists jump the traffic lights. Because they can't stop in the green boxes allocated to them. It makes sense really.

'Along with genocide, ethnic cleansing, capital punishment etc. All necessary evils?' No Lozzyloz they are not all necessary evils. What I described was torture of captured spies or enemies to gain information that saved thousands of lives. That was a reality in the second world war, and indeed in most wars, even if you fail to acknowledge it. How can you possibly intimate that I would also classify genocide as a necessary evil?

Would you torture a captured suicide bomber if the information received from him prevented a bomb going off and thus saving possibly hundreds of lives?

Wasn't torture used in the second world war to great effect? I'd imagine many lives were saved on the information garnered. It's not for the squeamish, but perhaps a necessary evil......Even Jack Bauer is prone to a bit of it.

No I don't. But would you agree that plenty of drivers probably do?

I'm a driver and a cyclist. I think that the behaviour of some cyclists cause resentment and antagonism amongst drivers and this can pose a danger to other cyclists who may bear the brunt of this.

Let's be clear, I am referring to the death penalty for murder. Torture will be adequate for drug dealers.

Funnily enough we're not in that top ten.

I'm not sure if innocent people would die with DNA evidence readily available. There are some cast iron convictions that there are no doubts about. Take Sonnex. Why should his life be preserved at a cost to the tax payer? He sadistically took a life. There is no evidence of mental illness or diminished responsibility. He's just plain old evil. And there are absolutely no doubts whatsoever that he committed the crime.

We currently don't have capital punishment in the this country. Would you say this works?

Nicely done :))

There are too many of them on the road and they present a clear hazard for all road users. Many are simply not qualified to cycle on busy roads and can cycle dangerously, mounting pavements, jumping red lights and weaving dangerously in and out of traffic. They are also inconsiderate. Rarely will a cyclist ever give way to a driver. Try pulling out of a junction onto a main road in rush hour. Just when there is a break in traffic and an opportunity to pull out a huge pelathon of cyclists appears, none of them prepared to allow you to merge into the traffic.......Maybe they could be considered for torture as well.

Sean you're right, I can't provide you with any examples of societies that have benefited from torture or capital punishment. I'm not armed with such stats on a daily basis. I'm sure if I was I could probably put some sort of spin on them to suggest that torture of criminals and enemies of the state and capital punishment do indeed create a better society. I'd imagine for one thing Britain in the 50s had less of a drug and crime problem then it does now, and capital punishment was still in force then.

So just to clarify, I'm now in a debate with someone who is defending drug dealing? Let's be clear. The drug dealing you describe is of the petty variety, usually involving to selling to mates. Not exactly 'The Wire'. Similarly I draw no comparison between someone who gets nicked for having a punch up in a pub and someone who ties someone to a chair and stabs them 250 times. Both acts of violence, but quite a discrepancy I'm sure you would agree.

I'm sorry Legal but how can you possibly compare being nicked for drink driving or inciting racial hatred, as nasty as these offences are, with paedophilia or drug dealing?

What crimes have Paris Hilton and Nick Griffin committed ?

Where do we draw the line? Is there a need to draw a line between an annoying celebrity and a paedophile? Surely any fool can differentiate? Sean what do you mean by 'worked' ? You use two examples, the Swedish model and the Saudi model. Do you have statistics to compare the drug dealing convictions in Sweden compared to Saudi Arabia? How else can it be proved which system works with regards to this type of crime?

I would not compare Paris Hilton, or even Nick Griffin, to a drug dealer or a paedo.

Why has this place gone to the dogs Sean? Because some of us have views that are not as liberal as yours ? Well I'll admit, I hate drug dealers. I also hate Paedos. And I hate people who commit random acts of violence for absolutely no reason at all. And quite frankly I would not lose a wink of sleep to know that these people were getting all that's coming to them. Call it karma.