Tony.London Suburbs

Marmora Man Wrote: TLS - why should a street market be funded by the council? Surely if it's providing a service (ie "is loved") it will thrive. Not all "services" are profit-making though MM. Its one of the few features left in that area, though, MM and I feel should be supported, accordingly.

Atila Reincarnate Wrote: I lived in East street for approximately 12 years between the early 60's to the middle 70's and grandmother until her death 1n 2005. The market is not as it used to be as the mix of races, cultures, since that time has changed markedly so the demand for the products that the stalls used to sell is not in demand as much as they used to be. It is a shame nonetheless, as I have many happy memories of shopping in the "Lane" as a child with my mum and later as a teenager when I used to buy some of my records from A1 stores in the Walworth Road and May Smiths toy shop at the top of East Street, and my Levis, Sta Press, Ben Shermans, Brutus shirts, tonic trousers from Fox's outfitters, where the actor somtime club bouncer "Nosher" Powell used to serve. Happy days indeed. >:D< EXACTLY what I was saying and surprise, surprise it comes from someone who IN PRACTICE NOT THEORY actually lived there during the halcyon days of a very vibrant market that was universally loved in South-Eaat London, then. As the Guys from that era and area moved out, so did many of The market-stall holders customers. So the stalls had less and less customer-base and nearly all went to the wall. Spoke to the Guy who had the "Number 1" Pitch in the Market on the junction of Walworth Road, which had been in his Family for 100 years ( he aaid). He would love to still be there, but he said there is little demand for traditionally English "Fruit 'n Veg" in that area now , which is, exactly, what I was saying the other day. Its nothing to do with who has the nicest colour skin--we are all originally from Africa and all equal in the eyes of The Lord and should be equal qith each other. It IS all about the loss of traditional English Culture, in this case exemplfied by a Street Market that has existed for 100 years only 3/4 miles from the heart of Central London. p.s Atila, I hate to be one to tell you but next door to The English Sausages sold at Kennedys which shut recently, after 70 years, is The A.1.Stores (that had been open for 80 years) and that has just shut down now, as well, due to lack of demand. The traditionally British, I'll amend that to "English" feel of that area is dying fast. Even The Manor Place Baths where we played 5-a-side Football, swam in the Pool, played Table Tennis and watched Wrestling and Boxing is now a Tibetan Temple....lovely...

Walworth's East Street Market 'dying' Thursday, 04 June 2009 Stallholder Ador Miah talks to Simon Hughes MP at East Street Market, Walworth By Jenny Clover TRADERS at a once-thriving market claim it is ?dying on its feet? and are even taking bets on when it will close. Stallholders at East Street in Walworth, claim their market, which has been going since 1880, is unloved and underfunded. A report commissioned by the Southwark Association of Street Traders found that in just one year the number of stallholders across the borough has shrunk from 480 to 275. Just seen this while looking at The South London Press. This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to..

Whats this got to do with Tony Benn?::o

Conservative. Actually the more I converse and interact with socialists, the more I realise I might be the true socialist.....

Actually the more I converse and interact with socialists, the more I realise I might be the true socialist...

Bit of a slow-burner, thus far...

I just want somebody to answer my question. Hazel will do, anyone?

gallinello Wrote: I will contact him on this one; his responses, unlike yours, TLS, are normally clear, concise and rational. TLS:If are having difficulty comprehending either of my 2 postings regarding The Horrible Gentleman, then allow me to elaborate. Which part of the above do you fail to understand gallinello? gallinello: I couldn't possibly respond to this alleged "wrecking" and destruction of working class communities through station closures. It's obviously something that had a deep effect on you and your elephantine memory, leading to hateful thoughts and murderous images of pain and torture for the alleged perpetrator. TLS:If you were a member of one of the Communities in, say. Cornwall, that suddenly became "detached" then your attitude might be somewhat different I would expect. As it did NOT, presumably, affect you adversely then "sod 'em!" eh! galli? What an altruistic socialist view... Seems like the sun you mentioned, shines out of this Politician's posteria....B)

Anthony Wedgewood-Benn, was born a fully-fledged aristocrat, the son of Viscount Stansgate. Sir John Benn was a Baronet before that. He was described as an "Old Testament prophet" who "immatures with age" by Harold Wilson, while he was part of his 1964-70 Government. He was a great supporter of that other "mild-mannered democratic socialist, champion of just, working-class causes", namely,Arthur Scargill, who tried to bring down The Country, at the time...:)

gallinello Wrote: Tony Benn, mild-mannered democratic socialist, champion of just, working-class causes; are you feeling alright, TLS? Some of us have photographic, elephantine memories gallinello! For example, when Doctor Beeching decimated The British Railways Network back in The 1960's and destroyed The Communities of many working-class people, who do you think sat right next to him at The Press Conference explaining and detailing how our Transport infra-structure was going to be wrecked? Who do you think aided and assisted him in this and did NOT exactly "champion" the working-class cause? Why that nice Aristocratic socialist "champion" WEDGIE!! p.s The only line out of Grinstead that survived the axe was EAST Grinstead, which by REMARKABLE CO-INCIDENCE was Beeching's own line at the time!, the road to it is now called "Beeching Way".. "Champion" Socialist--More "Champagne" Socialist and Hilary has followed on his proud tradition....:)-D

???? Wrote: followed by a "Wedgie" The only "Wedgie" that I would like to see tortured and have his cranium removed is Viscount "Wedgie" Benn, and we can do his Son, Hilary, at the same time. The Show could be a Double-Headed Bill ..(tu)

sophiesofa Wrote: 101% 110% 200% 1000000% the list goes on You can't get higher than 100% sophie: my maths is a bit rusty. If I bought a Snooker Table for ?100, a few years ago, and it now costs ?500. What percentage increase is that, please?

matthew123 Wrote: Ronaldo was very influential for United I don't think anyone is going to miss him departing these shores. We'll miss his outrageous talent, though.

Remember the words of a 24-year-old Girl in Lewisham Council when I worked there. She was delighted that a Guy, living locally to her, had his windows put in as he had displayed a Conservative sticker in them. Maybe thats why. Labour supporters, overall, tend to be more fervent and passionate "supporting" the cause. Conservatives, particularly in days of yore, were the "Silent Majority".

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- Tony: just to be clear - if that witty remark referred to me, it don't apply - I genuinely don't do drugs. Please don't accuse me of being witty, even sarcastically.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: Also, drug dealers may be a blight on society but without them a large number of forumites wouldn't function.... that doesn't make it right of course. Just saying.... Talk about the Dawn Of Realisation! (well 7.30AM anyway) ... The extraordinarily erratic behaviour of certain Forumites, one moment sociable, friendly, welcoming and then at other times metamorphorising, metamorphorsizing, metamorfthesing, well, transforming, anyway, into snarling, ranting cosmerges, with no warning and for no apparent reason has suddenly become much clearer and understandable. Just saying.... p.s. Does anyone know how to spell metamorphising ?

Sherwick Wrote: Maybe, how many ways is it possible to get out in cricket? Your rhetorical question has gotme stumped. Whats the answer?

KalamityKel Wrote: What we need is a great big melting-pot turning out coffee-coloured people by the score. Excuse me? ABSOLUTELY MARVELLOUS!!!! I have written thousands upon thousands of words on this Sybject and you pick out that line and you have missed the point entirely KK! ( Yes1 I know you are going to say you were being "sarcastic" ). I deliberately paraphrased a Song and even mentioned the Musicians: Blue Mink ( Melting Pot).. or in your haste to make that comment did you not note that?

Sherwick Wrote: I think you're wrong. What's happened in the past 40 years may not happen in the next 40 years. I say this because I think we are heading towards all being tanned, i.e. mixed, eventually. Initially, immigrants tend to congregate together when they come to a country, but eventually they do integrate with the indigenous population (it's a theory, but there may be evidence for this). Added to that, many white Europeans have been coming here recently. By the way, this white flight that you speak of may well be 'WEALTH flight' - think about it. What we need is a great big melting-pot turning out coffee-coloured people by the score. I must write a Song with those lines in it..:) ( With apologies to Blue Mink-1968). I'm basing my judgement on what I have witnessed since The 1960's all over London Town so we will have to agree to disagree on that one. We'll chat again in 2049 and see who had the 20/20 vision...B)

David whether you plagiarised that post or not, that was extremely cogent, very much addressing the points. At this stage I have only read your comments but will take time later to read "Diversity Within Unity". It will be a most fascinating read.

Sherwick Wrote: I have not been adversely affected in any way whatsoever. I think my career prospects improved actually. More opportunities, more ideas, > a greater and diverse range of customers. Environment - London seems to be a much better place to me than it was in the 1970s... I cannot think of a single way how my culture has suffered. My own area of residence isn't very diverse, and I do live in East Dulwich. However, I could afford a place twice the size here - another very green place for London. I choose to live in a nice green area. I actually grew up in Brent, where my mother still lives. Thats a fair synopsis of your replies. Thanks. You do see that your own lifestyle is not adversely affected by living in an area with mass immigration like Brent, so how does your Mum feel if she has lived there most of her life? As you are open-minded and civil and tolerant, I assume you acquired some of these qualities from her so how does she feel about Brent, which has changed dramatically, as I experienced visiting Wembley Park only 2/3 weeks ago?

Sherwick Wrote: Tony, you quite clearly have a problem with the LEGAL immigrants because you keep bringing up the fact that most of London (and elsewhere) is non-white these days, unlike the marvelous past - and , as I pointed out, the overwhelming majority of these non-white people are here legally and were born here. Later you propose a solution for dealing with ILLEGAL immigrants, and I pointed out that this doesn't solve your problem of the non-white areas. I do not have a problem with Non-White Areas but I note the fact that a large number of White Working-Class people do. It does not affect me or my Family, personally. It is not "my" problem with Non-White Areas and I do not see a solution at all. If you want my opinion I'm 100% certain that areas that have become more and more Non-White will expand further exactly as I have witnessed over the last 40 years or so since my early teens. Why do I say that? Take Inner South-East London, your Area. The only Non-Whites were in Brixton, initially in the 1950's. Almost none in the surrounding areas. Then Non-Whites moved to Stockwell and Kennington and Peckham in the 1960's and as they did some Whites moved out. That process accelerated as Non-White people, "generally", much prefer to live and socialise with other Non-White people so the process continued into Camberwell and Nunhead and Walworth and Streatham and Clapham and parts of Dulwich. Then that process continued to Thornton Heath, Croydon etc. So in my lifetime I have seen area after area in this part of South-East London change from 99% All-White to a substantially lower figure in many areas. Exactly the same process in West London with Notting Hill as its original nucleus. Exactly the same process in North London with Tottenham/Harlesden/Acton in the Heart of their Community. Exactly the same process in East London starting with Hackney and latterly Newham/Tower Hamlets. The more "immigrants" moved in the more many Whites moved out. Not saying they were right but they wanted to remain in White Communities ( apart from the ones who suddenly discovered mobility and fresh air :) so they moved to The Home Counties and beyond. I've said b4 on here Sherwick that I traced 645 from my Grammar School (1965-71 for me) and only SIX said they still live in Inner London. More lived in Sydney, Oz than the whole of Inner London where our school was located! So the reality whether you or I like it is that Communities, generally, prefer to be amongst their own and London will become more and more polarised. Doesn't mean we should not be equally respectful and friendly to people though and treat everyone equally, though.

TLS: 01:38AM "Actually Sherwick allow me to ask ..... 1/ How have you, personally, adversely been affected by mass immigration to this Country over the last 40 years? 2/ Have your career prospects or environment or Culture sufferred? 3/ East Diulwich is not a comparitively diverse area, culturally, so roughly is your own area of residence diverse or are you, personally, a resident of the relatively non-diverse East Dulwich? 4/ If you are an East Dulwich resident why do you choose to live in a relatively non-diverse area of Inner London?

Ted Max Wrote: You welcome immigration, and accept we have a moral duty as a country with our specific past to accept it. And yet you bemoan its affects. TLS: Not trying to split hairs Ted but I neither "Welcome" or "Unwelcome" it hence there is no contradiction as to the reat of your sentence above. We DID have a moral duty etc and it can and has adversely affected the lifestyle choice of many Working-Class indigenous people in that they feel strangers and isolated in what used to be Communities where the Majority of people shared their Culture and now they don't. There is a Gallery of Walworth slideshots on the internet. They have been tken over the last 2 years by a Swiss Lady, almost every view or image of the Whites that are featured show them as old and appearring to be poor. Sad images for me to see. Ted Max: Could we not apportion some of the responsibility on those of us who live in this country to accept immigration as a fact of life at worst, a duty at best, and welcome and live with it, as you appear to have done. The ability and desire to do that would depend on each individuals circumstances, its easy for me to be a pleasant normal tolerant Brit like most on here arre, undoubtedly.. Its entirely one thing for someone to be all-encompassing and embrace all peoples of the World when their are not really any detrimental affects to their lifestyle attributable to "mass" immigration. Its another thing entirely when, as in Newham, their new soon-to-be majority Muslim neighbours don't want to play Bingo with Maude and Ada and Jesse and don't want a pint with Harry and Fred and Charlie and don't want to go the match with their Sons or take their daughters to Indie and Rock Concerts. Don't want or need Fish and Chips shops that then disappear to cater for the new arrivals when they become the majority. ( Exactly what any Business would/should do) You can not cater for a clientele that has left the area so the remaining White Working-Class lose out. Their pubs are more likely to close down as the new arrivals don't want to go there etc. Their betting shops are more likely to shop as there is no demand from the new residents. So The Bingo and some of the Pubs and Betting Shops and English traditional Food Stores close down, accordingly Ted. I recall a Documentary asking why the Pie and Mash Shops are disappearring from The Old Kent Road and the remaining Owner said "They have all gone and moved to Welling!" so there is no longer sufficient demand to cater for those that remain. I'll let you ask them to welcome and live with it M8.:)) Please do not misunderstand. The Muslim lifestyle ( to continue this illustration) might well be MORE admirable and no-one should criticise ANY Muslim for their choices of lifestyle. Their lifestyle suits them and is equally honourable to any other lifestyle and their shops and neighbourhood will reflect that but thats no consolation to the remaining Guys from the previous majority Culture. Not when they now become the new minority in what "used to be" an area that reflected their tastes and needs and now does not to anywhere near the same extent, if at all. So great theory but in practice... I'm sure you are capable, like me, of understanding it from their viewpoint. Its their neighbourhoods that are fast becoming unrecognisable and unfamiliar to them.