Tony.London Suburbs

Sherwick Wrote: Thanks for your scientific evidence proving that 2 is the clincher. Much appreciated. (This is a joke by the way). If it's not often called "white flight" here, where did YOU get this term from? And I'm confused, is it you who are concerned about the lack of pure white neighbourhoods, or the BNP who are concerned, or both? As regards your (final?) solution to this terrible problem, the overwhelming vast majority of immigrants who are living here permanently are here legally and most people with funny brown skin were born here, so your 'deporting all illegals' won't work. In fact, illegals are already being deported. I'll address all these points later ( by the way, you, unlike Sean, have not answered my 4 short questions, addressed to yourself). Quick initial comment though. Why is deporting all illegal immigrants anything whatsoever connected to the fact that : "the overwhelming vast majority of immigrants who are living here permanently are here legally and most people with funny brown skin were born here" ?? As the comment only refers to the "illegal" immigrants and I have CLEARLY stated that I have no problem with "legal" immigrants whether they have "funny brown skin or not" and being born here, who are, by definition, as entitled to live here as you or I ( which I, also, already have said).) why have you brought them up Sherwick?

woofmarkthedog Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- 1/ Where a Dress. there is a Black/Asian equivalent so mixed marriages have additional problems, I'm agraid. Be very agraid Thought of you last night while watching ESPN Classic Channel. While talking on the phome I saw Doctor Crane emerge on the screen for 10 seconds during an England/Switzerland Match.

Ted Max Wrote: Tony... But your solution to this (close borders - deportation of "illegals") stems not from your own, creditable tolerance, but panders to the baser instincts of the very people with whom you disagree. Ted Max: As I said earlier, I believe we should still always allow genuine Asylum Seekers and have a Means-Based System, now, and in the future. I also said that it would be difficult closing borders unless this was reciprocated, while Brits can still float off to the sunset. I don't agree that removing all people who have arrived here or stayed here illegally since, is pandering to any baser instincts but common sense and correct. If I arrived and stayed in your abode illegally, surely you would want me removed Ted? Ted Max: Finally, you have argued that the poor are more affected - being less mobile and economically flexible. How then, was your working class Walworth community able to decamp en masse to the Eden that is Foots Cray, Bexley and environs? Houses were much cheaper in those areas that you mentioned, compared with Inner London. They were cheaper still if you ventured to Milton Keynes/Crawley/The Medway Towns in Kent and the average price during the main period where people left Inner London was The 1970's/1980's where even in 1983 a 3-Bedroom House, like mine, could be bought for ?27,500. In addition to that there was the period where many were able to sell their Council places after The Thatcher era so they had the cash to buy a cheaper part in or near The Garden of Eden, I mean England, which is Kent, of course...

vinceayre Wrote: My dad who died when i was 17 to tell him I still miss him. My Dad who, also, died when I was 17, 38 years ago, to tell him I still miss him. Naturally, My Mum, as well, who died in 1996.

Sherwick Wrote: It's an interesting question because I honestly have never heard the term "white flight" used in the UK. I heard it used in the USA a lot when I lived over there for 6 years. I find this very interesting... Anyway, I don't actually believe that it HAS taken place (which is also why I've never heard it used in the UK). I think people move out of the centre of towns, either to the suburbs or further out to the countryside, because there's more space. Also, importantly, you get more bang for your buck. It may well be true that some whites have moved out because of number 2. However, I've known several white families that have moved out, and all did so to get larger houses in tranquil/countryside settings. You still haven't told me what the solution to this problem is - I assume that you see it as a problem and not just supposed BNP supporters who you are speaking on behalf of? Thank you for your reply. Its not often called White Flight here. I was born near Camberwell/Peckham in te 1950's and believe me I vividly remember people pointing out Black people in the street in the 1960's. It was that rare. One never saw an Asiatic person at all. Almost everyone, everywhere in every social setting was White and you must see by travelling around London, away from the work environments of The West End and The City that that seems ridiculous now, given the contrast circa 2009. Look at any London or indeed English Documentary frm The 1950's/1960's about any Subject and almost every face you see in every programme was White/British, almost without exception. Every ordinary street scene etc Where do you think the following Generations of those people have gone to? Most Londoners are/were Working-Class so did not have privare travel. Believe me most did NOT move for "1" no matter how attractive !1! is. Whether you or I like it is "2" that was the clincher. Solving the problem? How can you stop immigration when Brits can float off into the sunset? I would have rigorous Border controls and only allow in genuine Asylum Seekers and the Guys passing a Means Test. I would deport all illegal immigrants, provided their original Countries accepted them back. Allow the rest of us that remain to build Britain so it becomes a respected Country again.

Actually Sherwick allow me to ask some more, namely: 1/ How have you, personally, adversely been affected by mass immigration to this Country over the last 40 years? 2/ Have your career prospects or environment or Culture sufferred? 3/ East Diulwich is not a comparitively diverse area, culturally, so roughly is your own area of residence diverse or are you, personally, a resident of the relatively non-diverse East Dulwich? 4/ If you are an East Dulwich resident why do you choose to live in a relatively non-diverse area of Inner London? Over to you, Mon Ami.

Sherwick, I had the good manners and civility to give lengthy answers to every single point you made. Would you kindly extend the same courtesy and address my questions to you now, please. Dialogue is a 2 way affair, I'm sure you know.

ontheedge Wrote: Sorry I might get slated for this but when T.L.S first joined the forum I wondered what his agenda was but later I thought he might be ironic and T.L.S an acronym of tines literary supplement but now I fear to say maybe what others think what a load of @#$%& bollacks you speak "You" might get slated?? What by critising someone who has put up an alternative view to over 90% of the people on here? Someone who has tried to explain why some Working-Class peole have voted BNP?? How very brave of you!! You took a big risk there! I AM THE ONE who took the risk by being open to misintrepretation and could easily have said nothing but, alas and alac, thats not my nature when I feel there is more than one side to a story ontheedge. Now as for your informed, insightful, analytical criticism of my comments, could you please articulate them, at your convenience, and tell me which parts have caused any offence and I will elaborate, if need be. Thanking You In Anticipation. p.s Just realised the "Agenda" reference. After over 2,600 posts on EDF I think the good burghers of EDF would have detected any "agenda" I may have long b4 now onthedge. I do feel more pasionate about some Subjects more than others, 'tis true though.

Sherwick Wrote: Tony, be honest. You weren't giving 'another' side to the story, you were giving YOUR side. That's why you were using examples in the first person> You say: "Add to the fact that, in my experience, its obvious that 75% of Mixed-Raced Children choose to settle with a Non-White Partner." . So? What's the problem with this? Eh? Did I imagine that you asked me this Sherwick??? "This process won't be the same in another 40 years because it's not the 'coloured' people who are coming here now, it's the Europeans." So I was giving a list of reasons why the Non-White population would increase, thats all!! Comprendre? Sherwick: In case it's escaped your attention (and any BNP supporters' attention) many non-whites (and mixed race people) actually identify more with the British/English way of life than any other, believe it or not. So actually the cultural heritage of this country won't be much diluted by these people, if that's what you're worried about, er I mean, if that's what these 'BNP supporters' are worried about, wink wink nudge nudge say no more. So why has "White Flight" taken place in London and Birmingham then, Sherwick? An enormous amount of Families have all, independently, moved out of London over the last 40 years Sherwick. Is that because, in YOUR opinion: 1/ There's more "space" outside Inner London and "easier mobility" enables them to move out. Or because: 2/ They saw their old Neighbourhoods changing rapidly and they didn't like what they saw? I would suggest that most of them must have felt that their cultural heritage was going to be diluted, even if you can't see that. Ask the former residents of Newham if they feel THEIR Culture has been diluted, somewhat..lol Sherwick: "What about "Inter-Marriages". If 2 people can overcome the many obstacles then good luck to them." What exactly do you mean by this? It has probably escaped your attention Sherwick but many people racially discriminate against others! I was shocked when I, also, discovered this, around 30/40 years ago, as well. That includes, on MANY occassions, "some" members of the extended Families of Mixed-Raced couples. Sad, but very true. I read, only yesterday, of an African Father who said to a "Super Moderator" on another Site: "Two things you will NEVER do: 1/ Where a Dress. 2/ Bring a White Woman into my house." For every White person who racially discriminates there is a Black/Asian equivalent so mixed marriages have additional problems, I'm agraid. Sherwick, It won't matter at all to me or my way of life what happens in the future to this Country, good or bad, but I wish it well, whatever its racial composition.

Sherwick Wrote: Tony, perhaps the British shouldn't have invaded all those foreign countries over 40 years ago and then got their inhabitants to come to the UK to do all the 'second-class' jobs then eh? Firstly ONE MILLION PER CENT CORRECT! Sherwick: This process won't be the same in another 40 years because it's not the 'coloured' people who are coming here now, it's the Europeans. Already 30% of all current London Births are Born to people born outside The UK. Add to that all the children born to the 2nd/3rd/4th Generation Mothers, as well. Add to the fact that, in my experience, its obvious that 75% of Mixed-Raced Children choose to settle with a Non-White Partner. Add to that the children born to illegal immigrants ( impossible, pointless Subject as NONE of us know these figures) but the fact is that this happens so the current percentage of children born to White/British kids is extremely low and must decrease further as Birth Rates are clearer higher in some Communities more than others. Sherwick: Tony, what exactly are you proposing after your rant? You are complaining about the number of foreigners in inner-London schools and inner-London neighbourhoods (and Leicester etc,) - do you want these foreigners sent back to their 'home' countries? Of course, by foreigners, you really only mean 'non-whites'. And let's not forget that many of these foreigners are now 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation - send them all back eh? And what about inter-marriages? Sorry Sherwick but that is a nonsenical paragraph from start to finish. It wasn't a "rant" at all but my take on why some people (not a great deal, in actuality) voted for The BNP. At no point did I say what "I" wanted but I was giving another side to the story which is unlikely to come from many other sources on here. So "you really mean Non-Whites" is ludicrous, Sherwick. Why would I want to send the decent Asian Family over the road away or my Ladyfriend, who lives with me, who is Jamaican or my Sierra Leonese friend who I talked with for an hour at around 7.00 PM this evening? If people are Born here they have every right to be here as much as I do. Simple really. Does not matter who they are. If they are illegally here I would and NOT entitled to be here, I would FERVENTLY NOT want them to be here. Equally simply. Sherwick: What about "Inter-Marriages". If 2 people can overcome the many obstacles then good luck to them. Why should they go anywhere more than you or I ? Sherwick: And if you don't want to send them back - what exactly DO you want? Don't say you just want to stop more coming in, because ALL of the 'problems' that you've described will still remain. Me? Oh! as you have asked me, personally, I just want to hold hands round the Camp Fire singing Kambaya with as many people as possible and then take everybody there down the Pub where we shall share some Cockney Banter, sink a few jars of Lager and talk about my Favourite Subjects like Football and Women and all forms of Gambling etc. We will have so much in common,discovering which Women we would like to get off with, few saucy jokes, more Cockney spiel, then off to The Casino together discussing Dog Racing. We will have some Fish and Chips and then off to the Casino for a solid nights Gambling, I'm sure it will be,equally,up their street,as well,Sherwick. eh?;-)

Sean: Ironically you are becoming more of a "Ranter" every day Sean. Even "nice" Guys have a dark side and your constant rants recently are clearly demonstrating yours. Enough of individual personalities and lets see what you deigned to say...umm Sean: As for TLS and his lip service to his "wouldn't it be great if... but we are all tossers really", and picks on a TINY minority of streets to prove how the the "indigenous" population are swamped - "it's basically scared, small minded bullshit." Us. Them. Minority. Scary words but what does it mean? And then he bangs on about it;s ok for the professionals but not yer working class. Well, @#$%& me for asking the obvious, but why should it be different??? Supreme initial effort Sean. Around 75 words and I don't agree/don't understand one sinle sentence. Not one. Lets appraise what you have ranted ( how unusual these days) 1/ Where did I say or imply "wouldn't etc"? and where did I imply or say about "we are all t+++rs etc". Please show me the T++ser" implication, Sean. 2/ "Tiny minority of streets?" Have you ANY grasp of basic Maths and Odds? Any at all Sean? Allow me to "do the math" in London, alone on their behalf. When I went to School almost every child in every School was White/British-My Primary School was 100%. My Secondary School near Brixton (2 miles) was 99%. I guarantee in South/West/North or Central London EVERY Primary and Secondary had 95%+ White Kids 40 years ago. The Jewish parts of East London were the only exception to this. Now in Inner London the White/British children are in the Minority in the Majority of Inner London Primary Schools. That is in East/West/South/North London. Ditto Secondary Schools. In Inner London its 21% I understand. ALL IN 40 years or so since mass immigration. If this process continues to accelerate at the same growth of the last 40 years then in 25/30 years time there will be?? Whaddya Reckon, given the decrease from 95% to 21% in 40 years. A minute percentage in another 40 years and White/British BNP Voters don't like to see their people disappear off the map, strangely enough. I go back to a different part of London every week in the Summer and whether its Harringay/Homerton/Honiton/Hackney/Haggerston/Hoxton/Hammersmith/Hillingdon/Hounslow/Harrow and 150 other areas its the same pattern. Yet you say "Tiny Minority Of Streets" LOL...Watch almost ANY School activity on any Inner London News feature and you will see this is so. You must be blind not to notice this or it does "suit" you to notice. How can you NOT see this? 3/" it's basically scared, small minded bullshit. Us. Them. Minority. Scary words but what does it mean?" So a Guy is Born in, say, parts of Leicester, in a White/British environment and 40 years later almost EVERY Business/Shop/Inhabitant is Asian and he/she should embrace the fact that his/her Culture has virtually disappearred? Seriously? Name me any other Group of people in The World who would be happy and content to witness that Sean? If you can't think of any why should The White/British people be any different to every other Group that I can think of? All you are displaying is the fact that this is happening in many parts of England,in London especially, and you can not see it? Do you realise that while YOU, personally, like to live in diverse Communities, many BNP voters do not feel comfortable with that? It "means" they are NOT blind, they can see their Area is rapidly changing and their Community IS being transformed and they do not approove of going from a vast majority to a minority in area after area. All in 40 years. They KNOW that their proportion of the local populace will be less and less, which is inevitable (given the enormous change of the last 40 years). 4/ "Why different for The Professionals" Seriously? "Professional" people are more likely to be well-travelled. Not settled or embedded in ONE Community. Jesus wept (I KNOW I sounded like you then!) but look at East Dulwich and this Forum.!! Most younger people have travelled to East Dulwich for the vibrancy of a decent Inner London Area near their work in The City/West End. I would guess, at least, half the people on this Forum were not born anywhere near East Dulwich so cannot have "Generational" affinity to the Area. They, rightly, like it though. Ask them if they would like to see it change radically b4 their very eyes in the future and see what their response is. Professional people give themselves acquire more worldly knowledge and create more options for themselves, additionally. They can AFFORD to be more mobile if they do not like an Area, others can not afford this luxury, I'm afraid. They have more ammunition through their superior Education to change their lifestyle and good luck to them, if they have worked hard for it. They also meet like-minded people from all over the World. Working-Class people are much happier in more familiar surroundings. They are, usually, more content than their Professional Peers to plod along at a slower pace in their own environment, enjoying the Company of "their own". They, generally, have no desire or interest in the Bolivian Economy or the troubles on the Etritrean/Ethopian Border. They do not care, it does not affect or interest them one iota, in the vast majority of cases. They have enough problems paying the bills, quite frankly.

Sorry. Enough is Enough sometimes. I have not read any of the pieces above, any other comments or read any newspapers since the results were announced but this is what I do know: The overwhelming majority of Black/White/Asian/Greek/Turkish/Chinese/Jewish?Younmeait people love "familiarity". They prefer to be with people of a similar "Culture". Whether you or I think that they should prefer to be like that is our opinion but is undeniable. There are some Music genres that cross-over but whether you and I like it Black kids will invariably attend Black Music Gigs with 95% other Black kids. That is their choice. Ditto Asian Youths. Ditto White Youths . Ditto East Europeans. Ditto Chinese. Ditto Jewish people. The overwhelming majority of each group are happy to be tolerant to others but would rather be amongst their own. TheRE can not be one person who has lived beyond 30 years, for example, who does not realise this. Sooooo when White people lived in Communities in most areas of London in the 1950's/1960's even 1970's where 95+ of the people "looked" like them and, making allowing for the difference in individuals, acted and had, generally, their interests, which were catered for then they felt in their Comfort Zone they were part of "their" Community. Now many do not. They feel strangers in "their" own land. A land where Generations of their Families lived in those same areas. Yes, we ALL know "immigration" has always existed. However for the last 200 years 98%+ of Brits were White. It only began to change since The Post-Windrush Period in 1948. Many BNP voters do not like being in the Minority now in areas that they regarded as their own Communities. They see this process accelerating rapidly and they do not like it. Add The Recession and a myriad other factors and you get this vote. It IS only 7% of a small turn-out. Not particularly significant, I would suggest. I've said before on here (yawn) when I lived in Walworth in The 1960's I could travel one week in my neighbourhood and only see fellow Whites. Seeing anyone else was comented on, it was that rare. I went back last week and down East Lane Market where I lived I was in a 10% Minority all-day. When I lived there in 1969 I was part of a 95%+ Majority. Now the shops cater for the new people living there as they should. Most of the old shops have closed down, their clientele have moved out. Places and people evolve. Even the Walworth School Re-Union was held in Bexley as everyone chose to move out. "White Flight" takes place for multi-farius reasons but I would heavily suggest, primarily, it is because large groups of White people are exactly like large groups of Africans/Greeks/Turks/East Europeans/Chinese/Jewish/Asiatic people etc in that they have much more in common, generally, with their own people. This intensifies enormously as people get older. Its not so apparent at Universities/Colleges/Schools were the "ideal" is RIGHTLY encouraged. Its a WONDERFUL ideal, make no mistake, but its NOT realistic as Groups will always rather engage, as in The USA, in their own Communities. The ruddy English even take over parts of The Costa Del Sol and don't want to be with the indigenous Spanish folk there so to believe that many would want to do it in their own Country is way off the mark whether you or I like it or think its right, morally or otherwise. For the record it fascinates me that, for many of my Black British friends I am the ONLY White friend they choose to have, and that says much about their choice of people who they want to socialise with. Every other person is Black, thats the way they want it. I'm struggling to think of any recent Social activity where I haven't been the only White person present, actually. Now the more educated or certainly the more Professional people, generally, have no problem with mixing and living freely in my diverse Communities. Professional people are Professional people. They come in all shapes and sizes and colour is irrelevant, as it should be. They will live in decent areas and most will be great neighbours so "colour" isn't an issue at all. Or should NOT be. That is not necesarrily the case in poorer White Areas where many feel they have little in the first place and then have to witness their Community becoming totally transformed in their lifetime and they suddenly realise they have little in common with many of their fellow local Residents. So s++t happens, I'm afraid.

Mick Mac Wrote: more are able to attend, perhaps Tony, Thanks Mick but I work for Friday Nights and Saturdays and guess what? Every other Wednesday and, sadly, its my turn this week. Maybe a Mon/Tues/Thurs/Sun or 50/50 Wed..lol

Mick Mac Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I used to do Rory Gallagher's Tax Return :)) How fascinating Mick! He seemed the most down-to-earth superb Human Being on God's Earth! Did you meet him and what was he like M8? Mick give yourself a treat for 5 Minutes and put the following into "You Tube" "Rory Gallagher - Bullfrog Blues"....this was why Rory was universally loved. After 2 mins 30 seconds the crowd in France are on the stage head-banging with him and then he carries on, playing on top of the Amps and back amongst the madding crowd again. Exhilarating stuff and I never saw him. More fool me.

Its somewhat different to the atmosphere when I paid an old "tanner" (i.e.Under 3 pence) so watch the Teatime session at The Vauxhall End of The Oval after our Grammar School lessons which were 50 yards away... John Edrich, Micky Stewart and Ken Barrington would not have approoved...:)

Chick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think the low turnout on the 20th anniversary of > the massacre in Tiananmen Square is disgraceful. It is/was but I bet there was an even lower turn-out in Tiananmen Square itself though...

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Tony,PSSS Fictional fella Top Cat, Captain Birdseye ain't real??? Well Captain Birdseye in definitely real as I used to see him in the adverts over a 25 year period, though admittedly, he did change appearance radically over that time. ( but then I had hair like George Michael once so I didn't think any more of it)... Top Cat is a blow though but Boss Cat was real weren't he? Still like to ask Bobby Moore "Why M8" ?

Bobby Moore to ask him "Why Bobby" Alan Ball to recreate his "sitting on the ball" antics at Hampden Park in front of 100,000 hysterical, fanatical flag-waving Scots when England went 2/0 up near the end. Sir Alf Ramsey so that he and Bally could relive the conversation they had after the game when Alfie had, specifically, told the Team NOT to wind up The Scots in their own backyard....:))

We are all not far from singing from the same hymn sheet. Some believe that rehabilitation and compassion for people with broken lives are the way forward and others, like myself, believe that certain crimes should be punishable by amputation of the right hand, administered, naturally, under anesthetic. Indeed, If the thief repents and makes restitution before the case is brought before a judge, the punishment can be reduced. Aggravated theft can be punished by cross-amputation of a hand and a foot. Flogging would be suitable and acceptable in some cases for certain crimes, as well. Obviously, for more serious crimes some of us feel that more severe punishment is necessary. So a bit of fine tuning and I believe we will all be of common accord.:)-D

Co-Sign Marmora Man.

No! We ARE getting back on track Atila. We are at the point where we are all agreed that Football Hooligans are the smartest and we should target the victims of crime, I think.

bigbadwolf Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In other words Tony you tried to score some drugs > last night but got flogged some chalk dust > instead. Not me GuvB) Not even a cigarette has passed through my cherry lips. Women and Gambling have been my vices for the last 35 years though:-$ They actually bought "baking powder" at first from Con Artist "1"...Con Artist "2" was 60 years old..lol

LOL..Thank You for taking so long Wolfie!..I wanted to cut 'n paste some insults to you and in doing so stumbled on a piece written by an articulate drug-user who told of his night out, with 2 people he had just met, in sunny Dalston the other evening.:))..Think the 3 of them wanted some "Mandy" ?? and "MDMA" and all ended up getting ripped off by 4 different people all of whom were "sympathetic" about the earlier Guys (who had nothing to do with them, naturally!) ripping them off, so they ripped them off even more, individually and collectively. Great lesson for any Young Londoners venturing out of their "manor" and "comfort zone" to party away, needing the assistance of drugs along the way. If you don't get done by Con Artist "1" then "2" might get you, avoid them and "3" will show up with others behind him to have a go, as well.... Anyway back to the game....

woofmarkthedog Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Oh why not throw who's who at me Tony None of the above Well Meowwwwwwwww to you, you old fart...I'm off...(6) Thought it simply HAD to be one of The Musical Youth Guys...:( Silly Game anywayz..:X 'ere I hopes u ain't implying that I copied that list ? Thought of 'em all meself and put dem alfabetticcaly as well, even the wons i aint even 'eard of.. Cheeky young pup/kitten...

Arthur Conan Doyle Albert Austin Sir Michael Balcon John Baskerville Bill Oddie Black Sabbath Matthew Boulton James Brindley Jane Bunford George Cadbury Charlatans David Lodge Dexy's Midnight Runners Duran Duran Edward Burne Jones Electric Light Orchestra Nigel Mansell Neville Chamberlain Joseph Chamberlain Sid Field Tony Hancock Washington Irving Alexander Issigonis Joseph Priestley Judas Priest Frederick William Lanchester William Murdoch Ocean Colour Scene Ozzy Osbourne Thomas Telford J R Tolkien Traffic James Watt UB40 If not Murray Walker, Nigel Mansell, Roy Wood or any of The wondrous Musical Youth who are still passing the dutchie as we speak.... Yes?