TheCat

Not many people will be willing to raise their head above the parapet on this issue I suspect. Of course I fully support anyone's right to live as whatever gender they desire....but I think there needs to be more honest conversations in public forums on the practical challenges/limitations that such a transitions raise. The concept of pretending that a trans persons life before transition did not exist seems to raise a lot of problems. As in this case, its certainly does seem like an unfair advantage.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ?The left have it in for them? was the resounding > hand flip dismissal. > I agree with all problems, as outlined in my OP.....but it's pretty hard to argue that there's anything incorrect about this statement given SFH's campaigning.....

Just back from second interview....it was a bit frosty...

Obviously a little bit of controversy/attention in the first week for GB news with the Stop Funding Hate people and various corporates 'pausing' advertising. While many on here would not be surprised to learn that I was very keen to see how they positioned their 'non-woke' agenda.....I've got to say I'm rather disappointed from the few times I've tuned in... I'm aware that advertisers are worried about wether the messaging aligns with their corporates values...but if I was them, I'd be more concerned that it all just seems a bit sh-t and amateurish... The bits that I have tuned into have seen very little in the way of 'news'.....instead....dull and stilted conversation between GB news journos and presenters (with very few 'guests') chatting about 'the issues that matter' apparently...replete with faux joviality and flat jokes.....makes me reach for the remote.... I think they've forgotten that no matter what the political bias....it's still needs to be watchable... All that said....perhaps I should be more lenient in the first week as with any new business venture...

Ah sorry. I've obviously glossed over the e-scooter threads.....very late to the party! As you were.....e-bikes.....

Slightly off topic Mal.. I was considering just this week getting an electric scooter to get into the office on the infrequent days I will go in there as life reverts to whatever normal will be.... Although apparently, a little googling tells me that its illegal to ride them on the road and its illegal to ride them on the footpath (unless you hire one from the govt approved e-scooter schemes - similar to the Boris bikes, but none around this area of course).....so not really much use at all it seems... perhaps worth having a look at the e-bike as you suggest....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 'The irony of you banging on bout 'word salads' > then trying to claim that 'many' versus 'most' > actually materially changes the meaning of your > comment....' > > They are two different words with different > meaning. But predictably you double down again. Geez....pls learn to take 'I agree with you' as an answer......talk about focusing on what divides......

Good Comment Rah. Stepping back....my concerns/objections voiced on this thread are mostly with regards to my view that throwing around the 'racist' tag to brand people that perhaps don't like some aspects of the modern anti-racist movement does nothing at all to move discussion forward. One can disagree with the 'how' and not necessarily disagree with the ultimate aims and objectives....there's too much focus in my view on what divides rather than the significant amount that unites (assuming you believe that most people are NOT racist, which it appears some posters on here are unconvinced on). I believe there are many people (of varying ethnicities) who find a great deal of modern CRT and Anti-racism activism unnecessarily divisive. But invariably voicing of concerns around these issues can lead to a swift tag of 'racist' and any possible discussion invariably shutdown as a result. Further, the constant hand wringing about who has the right to voice an opinion on these issues is counter-productive in the extreme. While I of course strongly believe that all of society should listen to minorities about their experiences with these racsism and prejudice. That doesn't mean that the rest of society doesn't have a say in how these issues are dealt with. If we are going to 'move forward' and start improving outcomes for minority groups, then getting the 'buy in' from the majority (as well as the minorities) is surely a critical part of that?

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > sorry if that not clear. of course he was > > murdered. Im referring to BLah's statement that > > most people who dont like taking the knee also > > beleive he wasnt murdered....I dont think > anyone > > reasonable would think he wasnt murdered. But > > plenty of reasonable people dont agree with the > > knee for reasons previously discussed. It seems > a > > very unlikely conflation of those two > viewpoints. > > I didn't say most though did I? I said 'many' and > was very careful to say that. Try reading what > people actually write. Social media is full of > right wing people who don't think he was murdered. > They claim he died of a drug overdose etc. In > America, pretty much every Trump supporter takes > that view. They exist, and they follow people like > Tommy Robinson and other harder right activists. > In fact, I am pretty sure you are fully aware of > the right wing nonsense spewed out by critics of > the knee and exactly what kind of people they > listen to. You are just being disingenuous again, > because you can't bring yourself to admit what is > blatantly plain for all to see after spending five > mins in the cesspits of social media. The irony of you banging on bout 'word salads' then trying to claim that 'many' versus 'most' actually materially changes the meaning of your comment.... "Some people dislike taking the knee because they hate the idea of black people having prejudice against them addressed" Yes...if YOU actually read what people actually write yourself. You'd see that I've agreed with that a number of times. Racists dont like knee taking....sure. But not everyone who doesn't like knee taking is a racist. Call that a word salad if you like...but the point it pretty clear. I dont quite know what you think I cant 'bring myself to admit'??....I agree that I think there are racsits in the world (yes...'they exist'), I agree that those racists will not like the gesture of 'taking the knee'....Im saying that people can not like taking the knee and not be racsist for reasons discussed ad nauseum above.... I dont use twitter, and dont really believe that these 'cesspits' are reflective of the broader world.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Do you just read the word 'nazi' and react > without > > looking at the context?.....the analogy is of a > > physical gesture which has wider meaning than > what > > the person making the gesture says it > > represents....choose another gesture if you > > prefer....its like someone giving you the > finger, > > and telling you that its a gesture of > > respect....you might not buy that.... > > So if I give "Thumbs Up" in good faith and it's > taken as an insult - Do I stop using it ? > > I'm 100% sure the football and rugby player are in > good faith. I guess if 40 percent of people take the thumbs up as an insult, you might try to find a different way to express your sentiment?

Do you just read the word 'nazi' and react without looking at the context?.....the analogy is of a physical gesture which has wider meaning than what the person making the gesture says it represents....choose another gesture if you prefer....its like someone giving you the finger, and telling you that its a gesture of respect....you might not buy that....

I do agree with much of this. I think the booing in particular of your own sports team seems a bit ridiculous, if I didnt like some political/social gesture that my sports teams made, I'd most likely just stay silent about it. For clarity, my comments on this thread are not necessarily 'defending' the booers actions, just trying to suggest that closet racism is not the only answer. To the point about the players and team staff making their intentions clear - this is a tricky one - as the taking the knee is clearly so much bigger than just something a few footballers do (one might say its heavily entwined with BLM and CRT even:)), so many people have seemingly formed a view of what it represents irrespective of the players stating their intententions. An analogy being that someone could make the nazi salute, while telling you that its got nothing to do with Hitler....but I bet you'd still think he's a nazi....

i think you've read far to much in the 'just'...not intending to be passive agressive at all. Im saying 'just', as I then go on to say that other people attribute more meaning that 'only' the anti-racist message - i.e. tacit support for BLM and CRT. Not everything is done with nefarious intent. The above example, in addition to your broader commetns suggest you seem to have very little faith that your fellow man (woman or non-binary) is as smart or as virtuous as yourself..... I dont mean that to be passive aggressive either...but that is the obvious conclusion from your comments. Im paraphrasing you, but basically you've said that 'Others' dont 'get it'...but you apparently do? Perhaps its worth exploring 'why'....people dont like the knee taking...there may be more to it than your 3 possible conclusions. Speaking for myself I belive there most certaintly is...or perhaps i've been hoodwinked by the right wong press into buying into the fake culture wars?... also..with regards to the marxist thing.....I'll repaste what IU wrote on thiw thread earlier... I think this whole phrasing of the 'marxist' nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit of a strawman made to mock non-political people who dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of course most people out there dont consider the 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a academic/political science level....but I expect most people hear terms like 'defund the police' etc and decide they dont like the sound of this mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to think, even if you personally dont agree with it.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @CAT > > Phew.... sorry if I misinterpreted then > > On the claim about the booers - I don't think blah > has it wrong - if you are one of the people who > don't think he was murdered (and there is an > internet rabbit hole best avoided) then you are > likely to boo. If you are Rid Liddle you are > likely to boo etc etc - before you know it you > have a large contingent of booers who fit blah's > description yep...as I said....those who prob dont think he was murdered are likely booers. But I really dont feel the opposite is true....i.e. not liking the knee/BLM doesn't mean you dont think he was murdered....

j.a. Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ?nuff said. hmmm...not really. You're presenting some of your viewpoints as very much fait accompli (i.e. there's plenty of people who dont agree that criticism of Meghan is racially motivated, Im one of them). I said earlier in this thread that the core of the problem here on the taking the knee is that different people have different views about what it represents. You've made clear in your comments that for you its just an anti-racist gesture. For others it would seem that its not....or at least it means a little more than just that. If people are free to have agency to decide how they want to protest/gesture, then other people are free to have agency to disagree with the form of protest without necessarily being branded as racist. No one, no matter what colour they are, has absolute say on how to deal with these issues.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Jesus, cat > > What is it you think is controversial about blah?s > statement? Your subsequent sentence seems to > suggest you don?t think he was murdered? Is that > right? what? no. sorry if that not clear. of course he was murdered. Im referring to BLah's statement that most people who dont like taking the knee also beleive he wasnt murdered....I dont think anyone reasonable would think he wasnt murdered. But plenty of reasonable people dont agree with the knee for reasons previously discussed. It seems a very unlikely conflation of those two viewpoints.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Cat, I?d be surprised if the racist contingent in > this country was as low as 29% ! im quite disheartened that you would think that...of course its subjective so is your preogative. but....If we take out the ~15% of minority ethnic in the population (as I assume you think its only white people that are the peoblem), and then take out children under 10 (I know people are trying to raise anti-racist babies, but for the most part I would think young kids are okay)...so that makes the figure closer to 40%........so you think that 40% of the population are racists? God I hope not...i'd like to have a bit more faith in my neighbours....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The thing being missed here is that taking the > knee relates specifically to the murder, and yes > it was a murder, of George Floyd by a police > office. Now oddly enough, many of those that have > an issue with players taking the knee, also think > George Floyd was not murdered at all. > im sure pk will be right along in a minute to berate you for misrepresenting those you disagree with... But while we wait.....the conflation of those two things is quite a statement.....is that based on any evidence you care to share? IM quite sure that anyone who thinks he wasn't murdered probably also doesn't like the taking the knee.....but I'd very very surprised if the opposite is true.....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ? SO I do suspect its a wider problem with BLM..? > > I?m not sure where any white personal would get > the confidence to say that tbh I dont understand why the colour of my skin determines whether Im allowed to suggest that some people might not like the BLM organisation or not? If im not allowed to say it..maybe YouGov is....this survey suggests sizeable minority have a negative view of BLM https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/not-for-profit/Black_Lives_Matter Perhaps i've misunderstood your point. > > If problems develop from people taking the knee we > can talk about it. But for now it?s black > sportsmen and their allies showing solidarity and > some white people telling them what isn?t and > isn?t acceptable. Which would make me runs > million miles > > I mean for decades before BLM we have had black > players telling us about their racist treatment > from the stands - and I?m inclined to think those > abusers are the ones booing (whilst relying on > ?non racist? booers to provide cover and > respectability) Sure. Dont really disagree. As i said above, of course 'some' of the booers will be the racist ones. And there will of course be some element of 'undesirables', which as PK has mentioned above more than pre-dates the past 12 months. But I come back to my broader point which is that I suspect than many people who dont like taking the knee (whether that happens inside or outside a football stadium) are taking issue with BLM specifically, as opposed being a genuine old fashioned racist. Surely 29% of the population (as in the You Gov survey) are not racists? We've got bigger problems than booing at the football if thats the case! Interestingly....not real difference between the views of teh english population in general and the english football fan population..... https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/581b3v3h1r/YouGov%20-%20Taking%20the%20Knee.pdf

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > I dont know what you're talking about. > > if you promise to listen, i'll explain when i've > got time I look forward to it.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > pk Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > So you think it?s different people booing > > > different things for different reasons? And > > that > > > those booing moments later are shrewd and > > informed > > > political intellects rather than xenophobic > or > > > racist dickheads? > > > > > > How do you work that out? > > > > > > This isnt a black and white issue (no pun > > intended). You're trying to pigeonhole my broad > > comments on booing in general to suggest im > > specifically talking about one set of > individuals > > at one football match. Sure...some of the > people > > who have booed at one or many of the football > > matches where booing took place probably have > > racist views....but there are a great many > people > > out there who I would guess that wouldnt be > > considered as racist who dont like taking the > > knee. How do you explain the Millwall fans > > 'turnaround' as discussed above....were the > > racists just all busy with something else at > the > > time of the second match? > > > > Seph, I think this whole phrasing of the > 'marxist' > > nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit > of > > a strawman made to mock non-political people > who > > dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of > > course most people out there dont consider the > > 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a > > academic/political science level....but I > expect > > most people hear terms like 'defund the police' > > etc and decide they dont like the sound of this > > mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to > think, > > even if you personally dont agree with it. > > > > Take for example the phrasing that PK has use > > above as an exmaple of this strawman as I see > > it....so people are either 'shrewd political > > intellects' or 'racist d!ckheads'?....that's > just > > unnecessarily binary...the overwhelming > majority > > of people will be neither of those two things. > > > > I think for many progressive types, its worth > > asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, > rather > > than simply insisting they must like it, and > > concluding that if they dont then they must > just > > be racist. That's just far too easy. > > > what a hypocrite you are I dont know what you're talking about. There's an actual civil discussion going on on this thread (note sephiroth and I obviously disagree on this issue, but can manage to discuss it civilly) - feel free to join in, if you like. But, if you just want to come on here to troll and abuse me, probably best if you just f#ck off instead.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "I think for many progressive types, its worth > asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, " > > I think the balance of responsibility is to view > the events of the last year, the rise of BLM, the > support of and for black players and ask those > people booing WHY they are booing? What is it > about BLM that irks them so? What is it about > taking a knee versus linking arms that annoys them > to the extent they boo the players they ostensibly > support Yeah, I understand that perspective. It can seem a little arbitrary/pointless I guess as to what is acceptable and what is not, all in pursuit of broadly similar aims. IM not a booer...(im not even a football fan:))....im just trying to keep an open mind, as I genuinely cant believe that such large portions of the population are racist. Case closed. SO I do suspect its a wider problem with BLM...and more broadly a problem with critical race theory (even if most people dont know that its called that) that they associate with BLM. And that is probably a much wider discussion than just around booing at football games. I spoken on this forum before about what I feel is the divisive nature of CRT/Anti-racism movement (not worth digging that up again here) - and I would sense that many people who are oestebibly 'against racsism' probably feel similarly to myself. I could be wrong, but thats my gut feeling.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So you think it?s different people booing > different things for different reasons? And that > those booing moments later are shrewd and informed > political intellects rather than xenophobic or > racist dickheads? > > How do you work that out? This isnt a black and white issue (no pun intended). You're trying to pigeonhole my broad comments on booing in general to suggest im specifically talking about one set of individuals at one football match. Sure...some of the people who have booed at one or many of the football matches where booing took place probably have racist views....but there are a great many people out there who I would guess that wouldnt be considered as racist who dont like taking the knee. How do you explain the Millwall fans 'turnaround' as discussed above....were the racists just all busy with something else at the time of the second match? Seph, I think this whole phrasing of the 'marxist' nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit of a strawman made to mock non-political people who dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of course most people out there dont consider the 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a academic/political science level....but I expect most people hear terms like 'defund the police' etc and decide they dont like the sound of this mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to think, even if you personally dont agree with it. Take for example the phrasing that PK has use above as an exmaple of this strawman as I see it....so people are either 'shrewd political intellects' or 'racist d!ckheads'?....that's just unnecessarily binary...the overwhelming majority of people will be neither of those two things. I think for many progressive types, its worth asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, rather than simply insisting they must like it, and concluding that if they dont then they must just be racist. That's just far too easy.

some people are just d!ckheads.

"My views are of course very much skewed towards inappropriate political intervention - this also includes taking the knee which is 'seen' to have been 'infiltrated' by Marxists, which 'supposedly' explains the booing" I genuinely dont understand the need for the inverted commas Mal...and more broadly, I genuinely dont understand the unwillingness of many 'progressives' (see what I did there:))....to accept on face value that most people booing probably arent trying hide their closet racism, but actually do have a problem with BLM (the organisation) and view the taking the knee as tacit support for that specific organisation.... If one believes that most people are against racism (I do), then gaining popular support against racism should not be a difficult sell...so my question to activists is why continue to bang your head against a wall insisting on using a gesture that clearly divides, when most people probably already agree with your overarching goals.....