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That's a fair point Alan but doctors and hospital workers do see it, and hundreds of them died during the first wave doing so. I don't think even Trump would lie about something like this, plus another seven that attended a Whitehouse function with him have also tested positive. Trump is in a high risk category, being 74, male and obese. Around 1 in 20 have died so far in that age group. And he could go from mild symptoms to seriously ill within a matter of hours. We shall see what happens.

There is absolutely no excuse for delivery drivers to not be wearing masks and gloves when they take crates or bags of food from their van to your door. Just as you do not have to let anyone into your home if you deem it not to be safe to do so, including council contractors who claim they need access. I think if enough people complain when this happens, then the council and retailers will soon get the message. It is clear that a lot of people have become weary about washing hands, wearing masks and social distancing, so reminders are needed.

It is not just delivery drivers, it is also shop staff, who in spite of the law requiring they all wear masks, and properly at that, many are not, including Asda in Rye Lane yesterday. In fact, I lost count of the shops, where no mask wearing by staff was on display, from fast food shops to hairdressers. Who is enforcing any of this? If I can cycle down a high street and see all of this from outside, where are the covid marshalls who are supposed to be doing this? I would also add that there are a couple of restaurants who are often full and have no extra space between tables than normal. Again, who is enforcing on that? Who is responsible for enforcement?

I think we should wait and see if he and/or Melania develop symptoms before judging the announcement. A POTUS can work from isolation if he remains asymptomatic. But there is never any way of knowing who ends up in ICU and who doesn't. More will be known in 7 days time.

This is completely bonkers and a complete waste of money at a time when other things are needed. That stretch of road is perfectly fine as it is for cyclists. I know because I cycle up it most days. It has a marked cycle lane and is rarely jammed, if ever. They would do better to spend the money sorting the mess that is the bottom of Rye Lane, that shared cycle lane on a pavement that is sinking into the gutter.

Yes JohnL, ordinary soap is enough to break down the membrane of the virus. The key thing is to rub the soap in for long enough, hence the public information film that suggested singing a tune while doing that. Two minutes is ample time for the soap to do the job. So I would say, if you have the time, do the 2 min soap wash. If you are in a hurry, or have no access to a sink, use the hand sanitiser.

But I have to keep coming back to my core point, that there in intolerance, extremism, cranks, rabble rousers, and those who speak without thinking on ALL sides of the political spectrum. This idea that the left are somehow more predisposed than the right is just nonsense. Yet no-one apart from John and Sephiroth here, seems capable of acknowledging that. And there are also absolute truths and downright lies, that some people refuse to see on the one hand, and excuse on the other. I really don't give a fig what anyone thinks about anything, but I do draw the line at willful ignorance, denial of the truth and deliberate obfuscation and misinformation. Those things are dangerous. And as a society, we have a duty to protect the public from that. Sadly, given that many of the world's politicians are the source of much of that (endorsed by large parts of the media), it is easier said than done. What ever the answer to that is, is not the conspiracy theories and rabbit holes of the political fringes. Ask yourselves this. Is a dishonest, chaotic, lazy, former columnist really the best the UK can do for a PM? Is an overt, tax dodging narcissist really the best the USA can do for a President? These are the questions we should be asking. Just how our political institutions have descended into the hands of morally corrupt individuals with no regard for anything but their own pockets. It could of course be argued it was always thus anyway. Everything else, is just divide and rule. We never learn do we.

It works on models that were released before May 2019. Any models released after that, not, because of the US ban impacting Google Apps.

An easy example for you. Q Anon. A complete fantasy from start to finish that led to a gun toting man driving across states to a Pizza cafe looking for a pedophile ring he believed was there. You have a point about who makes the decisions around censorship, but let's not pretend that you do not know what I am talking about here. The present free for all is precisely what enables politicians to deliberately lie and cry 'fake news' when called out on it. You only have to look at Trump's doubling down of his now exposed tax affairs to see the mess we are in.

Yes, do not call the RSPCA as they may put it to sleep even if it can be saved. Call the fox project as advised above. They will come and get it and save it if possible.

Nope, not rising to it. When you begin a conversation, claiming to address bringing sides together, but actively seek to sanitise the mouthpieces of the the alt right, while demonising the mouthpieces of a part of the left as some kind of disproportionate threat to who knows what, over the alt right mouthpieces who are actually in government, undermining ideas around democracy and government and sowing government endorsed division, you are playing games with nuance, in exactly the same way that the alt right and their media supporters, like BoN have been doing for years. I am calling it out.

And that is the point I have been trying to make Sephiroth. One could argue the flaws in that original post are accidental (ill thought out etc). I am inferring they are not, but are instead a reflection of the political stance of the poster. In other words, a deliberate exercise in nuanced bias. I find it hypocritical. To answer your question Malumbu on what can be done, that is rather hard to answer without arguing for better education and control over the nonsense being fed into some people's minds by social media etc. It is no accident that those on the political fringes rally so hard against any kind of censorship and concern themselves so much over who controls education. These are anarchists, who want chaos, before being the winners from some new world order that suits them. What I would argue needs to happen, is that we stop giving disproportionate weight and exposure to fringe ideas, conspiracy theories and public figures who have no interest in a cohesive society that works for all. That would be a good start.

And it is precisely that shifting of goalposts that is the problem with debates like this. The truth is that the emergence of a harder left narrative goes hand in hand with the emergence of a harder right narrative. This happens again and again in political history. And equally typical, is that those sympathetic to ideas from the fringes of both sides, are equally intolerant of the other, and equally incapable of seeing their own hypocritical bias and intolerance. This is why the most dangerous people are those who use nuance to push the boundaries, very clever people who know exactly what they are doing, and know how to manipulate the debate. This is the typical populist politician (on both left and right), who rabble rouses over encouraging consensus (trying to appear of the people as opposed to part of the elite). Appeals to ignorance over seeking the truth. Divide and rule in other words. They all have no regard for law and a free press that can hold them to account. Today some details around Trump's taxes were released, which come as no surprise to anyone who knows the man or his business dealings. Trump bleats 'fake news' because in his world, that is all that is required to make it go away. Having never been held to account for anything, and a lifetime of getting away with everything, he is the epitome of 'above the law' privilege. He was never capable of draining any swamp, being the crocodile who belongs to it. He, like most populists, is a narcissistic fraud. So what we should be looking at really, is why people fall prey to the nonsense of characters like this.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loving the real-time devolution of right-wing man > in this thread. > > Lib Baiter>>>>>>>Rabbit-Hole Alarmist>>>>>>>Racist > Nutjob...:) That is what happens when someone tries to argue that we should sanitise our definitions of one side, while further demonising the other. It is basically what the alt right have been doing for the last five years - rebranding opinions that sit on the harder libertarian right as somehow mainstream. Emboldening the genuine racists and spawning a new wave of conspiracy cranks. Q Anon anyone?

And there you go again TheCat with more obfuscation and now you gaslight too! Bravo! No-one btw thinks you are Uncleglen, so where you pull that from is anyone's guess. But it was entirely predictable that your thread would lead to yet another oft repeated rebuttal of the predictable Tommy Robinson loving Uncle. I'm just not hoodwinked by your attempt at feigned consensus, describing the left as some great threat, while ignoring the obvious lurch towards right wing populism that pervades Western government right now. Trans activists really are the least of our worries when governments led by Trump and Boris, show such little regard for law and the democratic institutions they are supposed to govern. It is not a left wing government in Poland that is fining broadcasters for reporting news it does not like, or that has abolished the independence of the judiciary is it? Just who are you trying to engage with here really?

Some of us have spent a lot of time trying to engage in sensible discussion around these exact topics with Unclegelen barking the same fringe tripe and never budging an inch. So spare us the pompous lecture. Your final line sums it up exactly. You have no interest in any kind of sensible discussion around polarised intolerance on both ends of the spectrum (the only sensible and genuinely bias free approach to this issue), you just want to have a go at the left. The pretence fools no-one and nor do you get to say who challenges what on your thread.

The issue with alcohol though is one of drunk people forgetting the restrictions that are in place. It was entirely predictable and government I suspect, caved into lobbying from the likes of Tim Martin, over really asking if people could suddenly become responsible around alcohol. Last night I took a walk through the West End on my way home. While it is quieter than usual, there were still plenty of young unconcerned revelers pub crawling. Imagine how that will go at the height of the flu season! I would think closing pubs and restaurants completely is a no brainer - a question of when, not if.

And the nonsensical ban on Huawei is shown for what it is. That is an estimated four million Brits alone, who won't be able to use this app for that reason.

I disagree Nigello. Plenty of protests often have counter protests, but why would anyone want to put themselves at potential risk by mingling with thousands of people at a covid hoax protest? Plenty of people do challenge those who buy into that nonsense, on buses, in supermarkets and on social media. They are often met with a verbally aggressive response. The truth is that it is the bullies of the world that are often behind these types of acts of defiance, and they bully because they can not deal with their ignorance being exposed.

The rumours from Whitehall are indeed true. Extended family that work in the Whitehall press have corroborated this. So, the question becomes one of at what point he goes. And do we end up with Gove or Sunak in his place? The latter would get rid of Cummings I think, so may well win any leadership contest on that point. Hard to know though.

And there proves my point about this entire thread. Having to converse with people who try to sanitise the politics of people like Tommy Robinson. TheCat knows exactly what he/she is doing. Uncle, I have watched Tommy's Oxford Union address. I have also watched some of the speeches he gave at EDL rallies, you now, the ones were he threatened to rouse up the English to drive every muslim out of the country, where he baited his followers to go after local muslim councillors and those who work with them. I can also point you to racist tweets that eventually got him banned from Twitter. No-one is fooled by him or any of the far right mouthpieces he openly endorses. And to you TheCat. You can never bring people on these extremes (of both left and right) in from their irrational extreme thinking. But you already know that didn't you ;)

The people who protested yesterday were being led by a stage full of cranks, stating and claiming the most ridiculous things. You could watch the speeches online and you have to really question the intelligence of people who buy into that over medical professions working day in and out to keep all of us well. Sadly though, I think that is the case for too many people, that until they see someone serious ill or worse in their own lives, they won't believe what every nurse and doctor on the front line already knows from March. No-one wants to see us back to hundreds of deaths a day I hope.

I have downloaded it too but there are problems with it. Firstly, it will only work on newer phones with the latest versions of android and apple OS. This means a good percentage of the population won't be able to use it. Secondly, it relies upon the user to report if they have tested positive for covid. Effective track and trace can only work if a majority of the population are signed up to it, or are willing to participate. As yet, there is nothing in play from government that achieves that. So I suspect the level of effectiveness will be limited.

The culture of English exceptionalism is exactly that. It is the island mentality that has driven a lot of UK thinking over the centuries. One of two things will either happen this winter. Things will get so bad that government has to order a second full lockdown, or the public will take it upon themselves to shape how things evolve. We seem to have easily forgotten the days when 900 people were dying each day in hospital. That peak began with 1 then 2 then 10 etc daily death rates. We are now back up to 40 a day. And bear in mind, they are mostly people who became ill weeks ago. What frustrates me is that we, the public, can do a lot to mitigate risk while keeping the economy open. But it is the actions of those that ignore even the simple request of wearing a mask on public transport that are reducing the chances of avoiding that second full lockdown. There are very few medical conditions that truly make a person exempt from wearing a mask. The vast majority of those who are not doing so, are doing it out of choice. If we won't oblige, then we can not be surprised when government makes laws ordering us to oblige. And no amount of defiant protesting in Trafalgar Square, led by cranks, is going to change that.

I suspect the landladies will sell off the building for property development. New flats are being built behind the building already. Canavan's won't be the first to fall in this way.