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And it is precisely that shifting of goalposts that is the problem with debates like this. The truth is that the emergence of a harder left narrative goes hand in hand with the emergence of a harder right narrative. This happens again and again in political history. And equally typical, is that those sympathetic to ideas from the fringes of both sides, are equally intolerant of the other, and equally incapable of seeing their own hypocritical bias and intolerance. This is why the most dangerous people are those who use nuance to push the boundaries, very clever people who know exactly what they are doing, and know how to manipulate the debate. This is the typical populist politician (on both left and right), who rabble rouses over encouraging consensus (trying to appear of the people as opposed to part of the elite). Appeals to ignorance over seeking the truth. Divide and rule in other words. They all have no regard for law and a free press that can hold them to account. Today some details around Trump's taxes were released, which come as no surprise to anyone who knows the man or his business dealings. Trump bleats 'fake news' because in his world, that is all that is required to make it go away. Having never been held to account for anything, and a lifetime of getting away with everything, he is the epitome of 'above the law' privilege. He was never capable of draining any swamp, being the crocodile who belongs to it. He, like most populists, is a narcissistic fraud. So what we should be looking at really, is why people fall prey to the nonsense of characters like this.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loving the real-time devolution of right-wing man > in this thread. > > Lib Baiter>>>>>>>Rabbit-Hole Alarmist>>>>>>>Racist > Nutjob...:) That is what happens when someone tries to argue that we should sanitise our definitions of one side, while further demonising the other. It is basically what the alt right have been doing for the last five years - rebranding opinions that sit on the harder libertarian right as somehow mainstream. Emboldening the genuine racists and spawning a new wave of conspiracy cranks. Q Anon anyone?

And there you go again TheCat with more obfuscation and now you gaslight too! Bravo! No-one btw thinks you are Uncleglen, so where you pull that from is anyone's guess. But it was entirely predictable that your thread would lead to yet another oft repeated rebuttal of the predictable Tommy Robinson loving Uncle. I'm just not hoodwinked by your attempt at feigned consensus, describing the left as some great threat, while ignoring the obvious lurch towards right wing populism that pervades Western government right now. Trans activists really are the least of our worries when governments led by Trump and Boris, show such little regard for law and the democratic institutions they are supposed to govern. It is not a left wing government in Poland that is fining broadcasters for reporting news it does not like, or that has abolished the independence of the judiciary is it? Just who are you trying to engage with here really?

Some of us have spent a lot of time trying to engage in sensible discussion around these exact topics with Unclegelen barking the same fringe tripe and never budging an inch. So spare us the pompous lecture. Your final line sums it up exactly. You have no interest in any kind of sensible discussion around polarised intolerance on both ends of the spectrum (the only sensible and genuinely bias free approach to this issue), you just want to have a go at the left. The pretence fools no-one and nor do you get to say who challenges what on your thread.

The issue with alcohol though is one of drunk people forgetting the restrictions that are in place. It was entirely predictable and government I suspect, caved into lobbying from the likes of Tim Martin, over really asking if people could suddenly become responsible around alcohol. Last night I took a walk through the West End on my way home. While it is quieter than usual, there were still plenty of young unconcerned revelers pub crawling. Imagine how that will go at the height of the flu season! I would think closing pubs and restaurants completely is a no brainer - a question of when, not if.

And the nonsensical ban on Huawei is shown for what it is. That is an estimated four million Brits alone, who won't be able to use this app for that reason.

I disagree Nigello. Plenty of protests often have counter protests, but why would anyone want to put themselves at potential risk by mingling with thousands of people at a covid hoax protest? Plenty of people do challenge those who buy into that nonsense, on buses, in supermarkets and on social media. They are often met with a verbally aggressive response. The truth is that it is the bullies of the world that are often behind these types of acts of defiance, and they bully because they can not deal with their ignorance being exposed.

The rumours from Whitehall are indeed true. Extended family that work in the Whitehall press have corroborated this. So, the question becomes one of at what point he goes. And do we end up with Gove or Sunak in his place? The latter would get rid of Cummings I think, so may well win any leadership contest on that point. Hard to know though.

And there proves my point about this entire thread. Having to converse with people who try to sanitise the politics of people like Tommy Robinson. TheCat knows exactly what he/she is doing. Uncle, I have watched Tommy's Oxford Union address. I have also watched some of the speeches he gave at EDL rallies, you now, the ones were he threatened to rouse up the English to drive every muslim out of the country, where he baited his followers to go after local muslim councillors and those who work with them. I can also point you to racist tweets that eventually got him banned from Twitter. No-one is fooled by him or any of the far right mouthpieces he openly endorses. And to you TheCat. You can never bring people on these extremes (of both left and right) in from their irrational extreme thinking. But you already know that didn't you ;)

The people who protested yesterday were being led by a stage full of cranks, stating and claiming the most ridiculous things. You could watch the speeches online and you have to really question the intelligence of people who buy into that over medical professions working day in and out to keep all of us well. Sadly though, I think that is the case for too many people, that until they see someone serious ill or worse in their own lives, they won't believe what every nurse and doctor on the front line already knows from March. No-one wants to see us back to hundreds of deaths a day I hope.

I have downloaded it too but there are problems with it. Firstly, it will only work on newer phones with the latest versions of android and apple OS. This means a good percentage of the population won't be able to use it. Secondly, it relies upon the user to report if they have tested positive for covid. Effective track and trace can only work if a majority of the population are signed up to it, or are willing to participate. As yet, there is nothing in play from government that achieves that. So I suspect the level of effectiveness will be limited.

The culture of English exceptionalism is exactly that. It is the island mentality that has driven a lot of UK thinking over the centuries. One of two things will either happen this winter. Things will get so bad that government has to order a second full lockdown, or the public will take it upon themselves to shape how things evolve. We seem to have easily forgotten the days when 900 people were dying each day in hospital. That peak began with 1 then 2 then 10 etc daily death rates. We are now back up to 40 a day. And bear in mind, they are mostly people who became ill weeks ago. What frustrates me is that we, the public, can do a lot to mitigate risk while keeping the economy open. But it is the actions of those that ignore even the simple request of wearing a mask on public transport that are reducing the chances of avoiding that second full lockdown. There are very few medical conditions that truly make a person exempt from wearing a mask. The vast majority of those who are not doing so, are doing it out of choice. If we won't oblige, then we can not be surprised when government makes laws ordering us to oblige. And no amount of defiant protesting in Trafalgar Square, led by cranks, is going to change that.

I suspect the landladies will sell off the building for property development. New flats are being built behind the building already. Canavan's won't be the first to fall in this way.

Sorry TheCat, but I don't think you are intending for anything of the sort, and on this forum, that is broadly speaking, liberal centrists fending off the likes of uncleglen with his Tommy Robinson book of opinions. It has been done to death on the Brexit threads in fact already. Odd as well, how you are targeting left intolerance when the right are equally guilty of that. Nothing to say about that? It is not the left that are driving the World towards isolationist populism at the moment is it? Let's have a conversation about that instead. About the jingoism of the likes of Farage, that has emboldened racists and thugs. Let's talk about the disregard for law and press and Parliamentary process those populists are displaying, from Trump to Oban, not to mention Boris driving to break an international treaty. Seriously, change the reoord.

So now you want to play word salad TheCat, pitting the sanitisation of the inroads being made by ideas from the harder right into the mainstream, while in the same breath, drawing analogies between trans activism and fascism? You only have to look at the next post to see what door you are opening. The only question is, are you doing so deliberately?

Cheaper to buy a conversion kit for a regular bike.

Why would you want to know, let alone discuss that in a public forum? Perhaps have some consideration for the immediate family (if any exist) who would not want that turned into a public discussion, if indeed it happened.

A consultation is a meaningful exercise in consideration of a wide range of views and impact analysis. That has not been done as Peckham Vision have clearly outlined. Inviting those who agree with that to sign a petition does not require Eileen or any other individual to say what they would contribute to a meaningful consultation at this stage. That should be simple enough to understand. Then you then go on to confirm that your real aim is to personally attack Eileen, over discussing the principle of the petition itself. Where it not for Eileen, Peckham High Street would have been turned into a huge bypass decades ago. Have a think about that. It is up to you to get involved in consultations if you want to counter other views. Attacking Peckham Vision and specifically Eileen for what they do is pointless. The tram depot was always a bad idea. The size alone, with it's proximity to a dense residential area, among other things. If you look at the detail around at the time, there was a blatant lack of consultation and a stitched up planning process. The law provides for objection to that sort of practise, so you can't attack anyone for getting together to use that freedom. Besides, as a project, it was never a goer anyway. There was never any money for it.

Give it up Artful. You are being deliberately provocative now. Peckham Vision are asking for a better consultation. They don't answer to you.

Same here. I avoid all badly lit parks after peak hour darkness. If there are people there, walking dogs, cycling etc, then fine, but otherwise, best to stick to where you can be seen.

The key as always is going to be enforcement. I cycled home along Rye Lane a few nights ago and could see at least three restaurants not observing either the distancing or the capacity rules. Who is going to police that stuff? The same is true of mask wearing. Half the passengers on the buses aren't wearing one, or are not wearing it correctly. Until someone is responsible for enforcing these things, they will all fail to prevent the inevitable Winter spike.

That's a conversation for the consultation Artful. This thread is not the consultation.

I think it is very clear what Eileen is asking for Artful. A meaningful consultation where local people can explore viable ideas that serve the local area best, as opposed to yet another get rich quick scheme for a corporate developer. There are more than enough examples of bad deals for Londoners that this and other councils have entered into.

Go Ape are very good at what they do and that might not be a bad idea. Crazy golf could work but no-one is going to do that in the winter when it is cold and wet. So I think it could be a seasonal use and the equipment can be stored in winter. There are a wide range of lawn games that could be tried out at other times of the year. And there is also no reason why it couldn't be different things on different days either, attracting a variety of groups and clubs using the facility. So if a bowls team wanted to say use it on Tuesday afternoon, they could. Crazy golf could come out at the weekends etc.

It is a mixed picture at the moment. Immunity appears to significantly drop off after a few months. But we have this with influenza and rhinoviruses, so this is not an unprecedented scenario. We have just become used to having vaccines for everything that was an epidemic problem until the recent past. The good news is that so much more is understood than six months ago. The two antiviral drugs that seem to have a significant impact are reducing deaths by 20-40 percent and there are better processes for managing ICU patients. BUT an here is the but, there are aspects to this virus that are particularly challenging for management. The long incubation period for example. Influenza shows symptoms with 2-3 days of infection by comparison. Another area of ongoing research is the damage done in those who recover. People who have genuine flu or pneumonia and recover, often struggle with things like ongoing fatigue for months afterwards as it takes much longer for the body to repair the damage done after the immune system defeats the virus. Covid is looking to behave in the same way, but covid attacks more than just the respiratory system because those ACE2 receptors are everywhere. So there is still a lot to be understood, that will take time to understand, and this can have other consequences for longer term public health resources. At some point though, we have to learn to live with it. And this is where the difficult decisions for government lie. As individuals however, we can do a lot of things for ourselves, to stay healthy and minimise the risks of infection.