Blah Blah

It seems as though the Western allies are lining up behind May and the UK on this. They seem convinced by the evidence so far and Daily Politics reports that this is a huge story accross Europe.

There might be no checks on vehicles leaving but what about their entry point into the EU zone? They are making it up as they go along. NOTHING has been agreed with the EU yet, nothing at all. This is why we need some kind of customs union agreement. Without it, we face a hard border to everywhere.

I don't think I have ever done a high tea although I would need a vegetarian version, so maybe stilton for ham - but then isn't that heading towards ploughmans territory? All sounds good though.

LOL I am with you there. Afternoon Tea instead perhaps Robert?

He sounds like Donald Rumsfeld mark 2.

It is relative rendel, but I would assume the carbon fibre cycle would get plenty of use, and maybe even the trousers too. Dining out is never just about the food. As you say, it is the experience of being out with family or friends, a social gathering. And there are lots of overheads for restaurants and cafes above the cost of the food. It is a long time since I went to F and M for example, but if I remember correctly, there was a pianist in that tea room and we were celebrating a friend from Oz becoming a British citizen. The whole experience was worth the ?35 we paid at the time (per head). We are still talking about relatively small amounts of money though.

I agree with everything you write Joe. Absolutely the Russian people prefer what they know, and the 'stability' of that, to the chaos that Glasnost brought to them in the immediate term. I also think you are right with NATO vs Russia. The peace has always been uneasy between two fundamentaly different cultures. History absolutely plays a role in defining that but I would also add that so does terrain and climate. Russia is pretty inhospitable in some areas, and it's very rural too. It is easy to feel isolated in Russia. And with isolation comes paranoia.

Well that was me Sue and we were talking about 5k spent on a single use dress, not 50 quid on afternoon tea! And I stand by my views on that but won't ridicule you in turn for yours.

It is more complicated than that though. Glasmost failed because capitalism does not work like that. You can not just switch economic system overnight and expect it to function properly from the off. What were the people really liberated from and into? Putin is a KGB man through and through. He was selected from an establishemnt that never wanted Glasnost in the first place. He is simply the product of an old order re-establishing control in reaction to it. On the NATO thing, well again, Russia is not faultless is shaping these thngs. It starts with the blockade of the Western occupied half of Berlin, followed by a hard border that seperates families for decades. Russia did not have to do any of that. So where do the seeds of aggression really lie?

JoeLeg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Because there?s about to be a Russian election, and as ?assured? as Putin?s victory may be, it doesn?t hurt to remind everyone of how he handles > things. Exactly that. I think you need to take a look at cold war history SpringTime. You will see plenty of tit-for-tat proliferation. Let's start with how the West really did liberate the countries it crossed from the dictatorship of Germany and Russia? Well, those countries just went from one dictatorship to another. And just like the Biritsh EMpire, those countries only regained independence once they became an economic burden to the host nation. Putin is the product of a failed Glasnost. He oversees a Police State where any voice of dissent is snuffed out. As for Syria, there was no right side to support. Again, go and do some research on the Assad dynasty (and how it was behind the first Islamic terrorist attacks in Western Europe. Learn something about the region (Syria has at least 19 different bedouin tribes that live outside of any idea of national identity). And then come and have a conversation with me about sides in Syria.

And that older generation probably won't live to see the consequences of their vote. They are harking back to some mythical era that never really exisited, the post war boom, as though that is some fixed model that can be regained and maintained forever. As you say, economies cycle, and that is the case whether we are part of the EU or not. There is no logic to the idea that the EU is the source of so many woes. I would go further and say that many leave voters didn't even consider the economics, or had no understanding of that. I agree that the divisions will run deep for a long time, but I disagree that predictors of outcomes are those who reject reasoned and well researched views. It is the lack of research and in some case downright deliberate lies that have put us in this mess. Those who do know what they were talking about were rejected - experts were belittled. And the real source of our woes, an inbalanced economy where big business offshores huge amounts of money out of the economy, is not going to change because we leave the EU.

A lot of Putin's popularity is due to the failure of Glasnost. Capitalism did not work for ordinary Russians. They went from state stability to not being paid and having to sell their possessions to eat, while the oligarchs rose, buying up the shares given to the people (in previously state owned industries) for peanuts. Along comes Putin, kicks out the Oligarchs and restores the communist state. The people were relieved. This is what the west never understands. We think that all the world needs is Western capitalism to make everyone happy. It is nonsense.

But this is also true of the government who have no majority. Labour are not in power so don't have to actually do anything or settle on any one direction right now. I completely agree though that Corbyn has fudged the issue from day one of his leadership. He has always been a eurosceptic in a party that is not. But even the governments own findings say there is no economic benefit to leaving the EU. The only question is how long it takes leave voters to understand this.

SpringTime Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- 'We should expect the Russian regime to be irate. They've suffered close to pointless NATO confrontation for decades; missile systems on their doorstep, a pathetic number of UK troops stationed in the Baltic for poorly considered reasons, Western powers supporting the wrong side in Syria etc. I'd expect them to be flexing their muscles...' Is this a serious response?

Not sure he asked for proof, rather details of the government investigation and response. It is clear enough that the nerve agent was a Russian product. He was doing ok at PMQs until he steered into a line about chemical weapons per se (which takes us into a number of foreign affairs territories and arms sales debates). At that point I felt he was using the issue to score points on other areas he would rather be arguing about.

So May has anounced 3 immediate diplomatic expulsions, and has raised various issues with the UN and other bodies. Will Putin care? I think not.

It could take as long as three years to follow through all the processes to a CPO if Meadow decide to be obstinate. So this could take a while. I really hope it doesn't. I don't follow football, but any business (and I guess even DH is a business) will suffer if decamped for that length of time. There is more at risk that just the actual land and ground from this.

I think that is right Louisa. we are pretty much limited in what action we can take and Putin knows it. He doesn't really care what the world thinks anyway, and is keen to remind the world of Russia's military strength when challenged. This is a familiar road. I am guessing that action will start with tit for tat expulsion of diplomats. Sanctions of an economic type are more tricky, because we are not a global power anymore, and we are leaving the biggest economic alliance in Europe (in the world in fact). May might talk tough (as she always does) but the tenticles of power don't lie with politicians anymore, but global business, and obscene wealth in the hands of an increasing few.

Guy Verhofstadt actually talks a lot of sense and has a clear idea of how a transitionary phase could be used to negotiate trade for example.

To be fair DF, the OP did not specify local or otherwise. And there are lots of good suggestions there, at differing price ranges, which is a display of the forum being helpful. ?50 a head would be too much for many people, but as a special one off treat? Our fav place is just ?12.50 a head - so there is something for every budget out there. I'm not quite sure why any of that should be an issue.

We'll bring the family too. Meadow have behaved outrageously, simply because they could not get their own way with planning. Another spiteful profiteering developer with no interest in local communities.

On the news now. Council are going to try and force Meadow to sell the land to the council, with a CPO being the last resort. Meadow can't win on this.

We always go to patisserie valerie in soho - very reasonable at ?25 for two and more than enough to eat.

But that is exactly the point Poch. There has been anti EU headlines going back decades blaming every woe of the land on the EU. The ref campaign did little to offer any kind of detailed, informative and balanced debate either. Those people in Cornwall never for once considered the massive annual subsidy given to them by the EU, if they even knew about it.

LOL, yes, that about sums it up John lol