Blah Blah

Yes I went Loz, and yes it was incredibly dull. Momentum were putting on a far more interesting programme of events, so much so, that I popped over to check some out. Horrified to say that I quite enjoyed myself there :D

It's not just the Tories who are against PR Sue, but some areas of Labour too. Caroline Lucas tried to get a bill adopted for PR in July. It was defeated by 81-74. SEVEN Labour MPs voted against, including Dennis Skinner! So it never got further than a first reading. That was an improvement on the attempt to raise a bill in 2015, but even if the bill gets through a first motion, it would be unlikely to make it into law and as you say, especially while there is a Tory majority. It's almost a catch 22 situation. Only PR can break the urban rural split, but it will take the Tories to lose an election to make it happen, which contradicts why it is needed in the first place. There is no doubt that Corbyn has enthused a whole raft of people into the party. But that is still a far cry from winning an election. 80% of the population never join a party, or attend a rally, or go on a demonstration. Their only reference point often, is the media and party campaign materials. That's also why door to door canvassing is important too.

There is a pewter society who might be able to help. Pewter definitely points to age - circa 1600 to 1800 perhaps. It could have seen the Great Fire! Fascinating if nothing else.

Yes and it is a big enough slice of the membership to think that a better candidate might get there. I really would like to see Clive Lewis stand. He won't go up against Jeremy, but if Labour lose the next GE (likely right now), then I would like to see him stand. I think short term, Labour are screwed, but Jeremy will never get to lead for long enough to change the party forever.

But that electorate still aren't voting and even in Labour's own elections for the youth NEC candidate, turnout was something like just 18%. The other thing to note is the location of that untapped youth electorate. Most of it is found in dense urban areas, not in marginal rural areas they can not afford to live in, and where there is no work for them. Many of them will be students in cities that are already Labour strongholds. This is why we have seen voting share go up in Labour strongholds, but NO movement in marginals. It's all very depressing and a move to PR may be the only chance Labour will ever have of getting to power under a left manifesto.

Indeed Otta. And that 40% can not be ignored. There is one key difference though. Corbyn this time won in all three areas, membership, affiliates registered supporters. Last time, he failed to get to 51% amongst the membership. Completely agree re: joining the Labour party though. Momentum only has 18,000 members, but they are ALL activists. It should be easy for Labour First to match that. It won;t be enough to just join the party though. Members need to go to their branch meetings and get involved with their CLPs. This is what Momentum is now seeking to exploit.

There is some truth on that Dave and to touch on what Bob said about changes to Clive Lewis's speech. This is exactly why the shadow cabinet resigned. Corbyn thinks it perfectly ok to change what is agreed at the last minute without discussion with the cabinet minister involved. He did a similar thing to the former transport minister at a press conference ffs. So much for the words about changing how he runs his office. Seamus Milne is a problem - there is no question of that. Clive Lewis is who I would like to see lead the party. I think he is everything the public would like. I told him that at conference over the weekend as well. It's also worth pointing out that even the conference hall wasn't well attended at the weekend either and the market area, usually full of stalls from party sponsors, is half empty as well - a clear sign that party donations have slipped away too.

Then why focus on Trident Bob (we are never going to actually use it anyway)? How about some of the things John McDonell has said on economics instead? Because I don't hear anything meaningful from the Tories about increasingly pay, improving working conditions, resolving housing issues and addressing inequality - nothing at all. I do however hear plenty coming from this Labour leadership.

That would be the sensible option Rupert. But sense is often missing when an oppportunity to fine motorists offers itself instead.

I think some of the response here rahrah illustrates perfectly why the media get away with the lies they do. It doesn't matter how many times you point out the truth, people only want to see what they want to see.

Energy deregulation has not worked well though Jeremy. The big six have essentially price fixed and we are now buying gas we original sold to France at a higher price than we sold it for. And in spite of their profits, we still have to heavily subsidise the building of new power stations.

Starbucks isn't going to close its stores though, Amazon it's warehouses etc.

Indeed rahrah. It's choice between putting all the wealth in the hands of the employer, or in the hands of the employee. When employees are paid better, they spend on local services, products, housing etc - the money stays within the economy and in turn drives growth. When the corporation takes all the profit, it gets squirrelled offshore, not only avoiding paying tax, but taking money out of the economy. This is what McDonnell seeks to address. Yes there's a fine line between incentive and disincentive, when it comes to corporate and busness tax etc, but at the same time, companies like Amazon, Google, Starbucks etc are not going to pull out of any country just because they will make less profit. The corporate mentality is to dominate every market. This is why Starbucks was quite to agree a tax payment deal once called out on it.

DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The 'our government will...' bit is crap. JC and > JMcD are proper old school Marxist socialists - > they don't believe in entrepreneurs, or really in > the private sector at all. If you think that has > changed you're deluded. But that is also saying that a person can not shift their perspective over a lifetime. Do you still think the way you did, and believe in everything you believed in 20 years ago Dave? (I am assuming on your age but you know what mean). I know I don't. Peter Hitchens was a marxist and trotskyist in his student years. Look at him now!!! I've met John McDonnell a few times. In person, he is very charming and very bright. But I also know there is a raging bull in there too. Pure socialism relies on the state to own and provide everything. Do you really believe that is what John and Jeremy want to turn the eocnomy into? Because I think that is an equally deluded idea too. Our economy is a partnership between state and private business, just as it always has been and always will be. All Jeremy and John are seeking to do, is redress the balance between the two - because that is the ONLY way to generate wealth for the economy outside of income tax. It is also the only way to close equality and pay gaps and all the other things that keep most people struggling to make ends meet. So the pronciple at least is right. We may disagree though on how to achieve it. The one thing I do know for sure though, is that the Tories care nothing for any of that.

Yes, a very fair analysis rahrah.

I wouldn't be too sure about that party support for May *bob*. The tories are just better at hiding their differences than Labour, but Europe has widened an already large chasm within the party. Boris, from his comments over the weekend seems to be up to something, by trying to force action on article 50. I wouldn't be sure his ambitions to be party leader have not gone away either. Yes May would win an election today, but in two years? Labour won four council seats last week, two from the Tories and more interestingly, two from the SNP. Rahrah is right. As much as some may hate Corbyn, policy on education and fracking over the past couple of days are going for that middle ground, and Labour can do well from both those polices. Polls show two thirds of the electorate are against a return to grammar schools for example, and that nationalisation of the railways is a popular idea. This idea that a return to state investment in some areas and ownership in others is fundamentally bad is just nonsense. Most people didn't even know who Jeremy Corbyn was before he became leader. The media have been completely responsible for doing a hatchet job on him. And those problems with the PLP have never been about policy. Personally, I think Clive Lewis is the leader we need. He's on the left but would appeal to middle england. Jeremy gets into trouble on the things he cares most about - defense and foreign policy. Those are things that will lose an election. On domestic policy though, that pay gap has to close. People can not continue to be ripped off by corporations and private landlords etc. The tories have never been interested in doing anything about that.

May was not elected by party members. It never went to a second round election, because Leasedom stepped down. In the first round of Tory party elections, it is the MP's who vote, to narrow it down to two. Only then do the membership have a say. So May is were she is, chosend by a few hundred Tory MPs. No public mandate whasoever in ANY form. Before Miliband, Labour selected it's leaders in the following way. One third of the vote from MPs, One third from Affiliates (unions), one third from Members. It is only since Miliband that one member one vote has existed. Given that those changes were endorsed by both conference and the then NEC, it's a bit rich for those same people to now be calling for a return to the college system because they don't like what the changes they endorsed have delivered.

It might advice you'd be better taking Grok, then there would be no need for I or anyone else to call you out on your attitude would there?

I just think it's better to say nothing at all sometimes Robert, if one can't say something helpful. Assumptions can also be tricky. People are not equally resourceful. Sometimes it's better to be kind than judgemental.

Wow Elphinstone. Please forgive us for not understanding yours and Grok's inability to let people be. Get over yourselves. You don't have a divine right to tell people what to say, write or think, let alone to be rude about it.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

Pretty sure they can't enforce it as it's not a parking fine.