Blah Blah

I think as well that part of the disillusionment comes from what we value and aspire to. People think money and stuff will bring them happiness and fulfilment. So the hatred of the rich often goes hand in hand with jealousy of what they have. And opportunity becomes about access to the best paid jobs and biggest houses. The happiest and healthiest societies are those who share and work together. The family unit is the simplest understanding we have of this, but a wider community can achieve much more. It's the relationships we have with people that shape well-being, not having the latest iphone or flashiest car. Obviously, things like genuine poverty, that extends to not having enough to eat, or to keep warm etc are genuine complaints. But when I see people moaning about the world and vowing to vote Trump on TV, they are often very well fed, in front of nice cars, bikes, decent housing etc. They are not the people on food stamps, working two jobs on workfare.

Quite Fox. I've been to Turkey a few times and it is an amazing country, with great weather as well. It's pure fantasy to think all those people will up sticks to come here.

I know a lot of people who think the same as you ????. The likes of the Brexit bunch and Farage are doing the in vote a huge favour.

I think the more serious question is one of why we are seeing a sudden rise in extremism. It's the same rise we see in all periods of decline, esp after global crashes. If another crash comes, and China is of concern at the moment, it's going to get worse. People really do need to step back and think deeply about what they are voting for, and look to history if necessary.

So I had to remove one sentence that asked the impact of laws on landlords and referred to the card you would see in windows in the 70s and 80s referring to dogs and unemployed and our closest neighbours. Bizarre.

It's the same process that totalitarian states use to prejudice groups of people - the National Socialists being the most extreme example perhaps. But they did the same thing. First they restricted the mobility of Jews. Then they made it difficult for them to make a living, and then they took away their property and made it a criminal offence for Germans to house them. See the parallels in thinking there? We should be very concerned by all of this.

Just take the process of state legislation the Conservatives are introducing to prejudice migrants for example. First they set about laws to make migrant mobility more difficult. Then they've sought laws (in the EU) to make it harder for migrants to make a living (by taking away the same in work benefits that all British workers get) and they are now passing a law to make it a criminal offence to house a migrant who is illegally here.

Thank you LadyD. I will have energy as long as people need fighting for. Uncleglen. You have no way of knowing that and every piece of evidence shows that a freer market means less regulation, including regulation that protects employees. Just look at those Tory cabinet ministers who are for Brexit. Do you really believe that people like Piri Patel and Iain Duncan Smith want to protect employees rights? There is no logic whatsoever in the idea that we don't need the EU for those protections - especially when we are talking about Tory government.

I'm trying to post to this thread and it won't add my post! I can't see any language problems with the post. Any ideas anyone? I'll try it in parts.

But that's how they think they win votes malumbu. By treating people as though they are stupid and can only grasp simple single issues. Quite depressing really.

Now that IS a scary thought.

Interesting.

200m inheritance is not to be sniffed at though. Obviously I'm not American so don't know all the nuances of the American elctoral system but am inclined to agree LondonM that Trump strikes me too as someone who would ignore protcol and rules. He's basically a bully. The White House is no place for him.

Trump had a little help with billions of inherited money to be fair. What I mean LondonM is that the president is beholden to the wishes of the senate etc which is why very little ever changes politically in the USA. It is practically impossible for any president to do anything radical. There also is no real representation of the left in the US political system either. By any measure, it is a system bought off by big business and corporations.

I don't think he'll have any chance against Clinton given that he has alienated just about anyone who is not white and right wing. But the campaign will be nasty for sure. Trump has never been a senator, or held any kind of office. He is going to be the antithesis of everything Clinton is. And just to add, even on the slim chance he does make president, he has no clue of what he will be up against in the senate. He will be kept in line pretty much in the same way Obama was on Medicare.

I always understood an expat to be someone that has moved from your own country to another, and as such being a term to describe the permanent emigration of a (British) national. And the Oxford dictionary seems to agree and adds banishment and exile to that definition.

But isn't expat just a term for an emmigrant as opposed to immigrant?

All good points Joe. There used to be a time where a 40 hour week was standard for everyone with extra hours being classed as overtime. It was a simple arrangement that everyone understood. Now we have buy out contracts and zero hours contracts etc, both of which mostly favour the employer over the employee. The government often cites that some people want zero hours contracts but forgets about those that have no choice but to accept them. Again, lack of job security also plays a part in the employment options of people. So I'd also argue that many of the jobs that immigrants take, aren't secure enough nor pay enough to support say a young family. But I'd also add that in my home, as soon as I and my siblings were old enough, we all got Saturday jobs, and then weekend jobs etc. They were menial jobs but it was impressed upon us by our parents that if we want things, we need to work for them. So parenting also has a role to play. I grew up on a farm, where the work is never done, but I wonder what a child who grows up in a jobless household learns about the world of work.

Quite KK. Often the use of cups for chips etc is to control protion size and as someone posted, to fool you into thinking the portion is bigger than it is. But if any of those things fail to impress, you just don't go there again. There are plenty of places that do offer value for money and serve on plates too :)

Some interesting points. Quick question JoeLeg on hours. The Working Time Directive says that no employee can be forced to work more than 48 hours a week. Some jobs have opt out clauses because they require more than that, but they tend to be higher skilled, higher paid jobs. In addition, every employee must have at least 11 hours off between working shifts, and one day off in every seven. I think there are a lot of employers that flout these laws because their employees don't know their rights. I am sure you abide by them Joe. The only way for workers to protect themselves and make sure that employment law is kept to, is by informing themsleves of their rights and to join unions who have the resources to legally prosecute employers who flout the law. On productivity. There's no doubt there are problems there, and some of those problems are cultural. To be fair there are many under 25's who work very hard, but yes there are also some who expect to walk into well paid work without doing anything for it. Some of that is also the fallout from the culture of 'cradle to grave'. An expectation that the state can provide everything and yes I think sucessive governments, both Labour and Conservative have damaged both the state education system, and failed to keep up apprenticeships, esp in construction. Also, 50% of young people going to University is also setting them up to fail. 50% of new jobs are not at graduate levels, neither in skils nor pay. So again a level of expectation not based on reality. New Labour in their efforts to create a level playing field of educational achievement, created more problems than they solved. And there is no doubt educational standards have fallen, especially in numeracy and literacy. Some universities have returned to entrance exams to figure out just who can actually spell and add up! But it still remains that the top universities are the top universities. I think it's pretty obvious by the age of 14 who is interested in an academic pathway, and who would be better on a vocational one. This idea that all yooung people can reach the same goals is nonsense. We are failing children by filling them with dreams they can never achieve. So I for one would be for the return of apprenticeships at 14, and that might just also save some kids from crime down the line too. Waiting until they are 18 to engage is just too late.

Yeah and changing local demographics has nothing to do with that right? Millions of people moving south over the past 30 years to get jobs has had nothing to do with it also right? And I challenge you to prove that any electrician will work for ?20 a day. Total crap from start to finish Uncleglen.

Being a vegetarian, the idea of eating anything from a chopping board, that might normally house a dripping steak horrifies me.

And you already posted that nonsense on another thread. If workers want to protect rates of pay, they need to unionise and take on employers. It's not the Pole or the Turk (and there are lots of Turkish people already living and working here btw) who set rates of pay, but the employer in a buyers market. Lots of people have been laid off only to see their old jobs readvertise at lower rates of pay, often employing younger people, who are cheaper to employ as well. So they EU are shafting working people are they? Workers have the following protections because of the EU; Health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers. Equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation. Labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees. Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives). And then of course there's the people kept in jobs by the ?200bn of exports to the EU annual. Yeah right, whatever has the EU ever done for working people.

Strong words yes, but given that homes sold under RTB haven't been replaced and people needing those homes have increased I'm just baffled that anyone would think the council should sell them one of those homes so that they can extend theirs! I don't mean to offend Lenka, but Southwark currently has a waiting list of 15,000. Every home is needed and Southwark are building new homes. But Jeremy is right, you can make a request, but it's unlikely Southwark will sell.

These were points made on Question Time, especially in reference to services. And that we currently have 53 trade deals in place, all of which would have to be renegotiated. The more I hear from both sides on this, the more apparent it becomes to me that the whole thing would be a mess to sort out, which could take years, and in the meantime UK business and jobs would suffer to some degree. But at least now the debate is moving on to detail instead of single issue soundbites on things like immigration.