Huguenot

Eh? Do you think you can just claim whatever quote you like unless I can prove it was never said? If you want to claim a quote in support it's you that has to prove it's true. It's been myself and a few others all the way through that have been trying to explain some of these concepts. All the 'End of the World' crew has done is make increasingly inflated armageddon claims with no substantiation or justification.

Even that 'I have unwittingly ruined my country" quote attributed by ibilly99 to Wilson a few posts ago is bullshit - never cited, never sourced. Just bullshit.

No, not in my opinion, in fact. Go back and read it all again. We've had incorrectly attributed quotes to Jefferson, quotes used to substantiate opinions that don't, the banking and political community accused of being liars and frauds (generally), ridiculous language and a blatant failure in claiming that CDRs are a reserve currency. It's bullshit.

No it's not. It's incorrect information, misused quotes, accusations, generalisations, hyperbole and deliberate misinterpretations masquerading as debate.

*Offers a brown faux leather jacket with padded shoulders and a 'V' down the back that was left under the pool table by way of recompense*

Ha ha, and you don't think I have? Come on LD, get off your high horse. I've worked harder than anyone to adddress these issues sensibly. What I'm saying is that every point made has been ignored to the point of irrationality. It's conspiracy theories, not logic.

ibilly99 - yeah, whatever, or more likely as sensible people point out, it simply wouldn't have been worth all the effort of doing the things Perkins claims to have done. Even Perkins said there was 'no consipracy' - so what's your point? Just a load of tin foil headgear methinks...

"I'd also encourage facilitation of workers co-operatives if businesses go to the wall, instead of administration and laying everyone off." They already exist, they're called management buy-outs. The 'management' can be anyone they choose to be, not the existing managers. I've done two of them, and they both went to the 'workers'. Since business needs organisation and role-specific activities, there'd be no point in investing in an organisation where no-one was willing to get organised, and people were just doing whatever they wanted ;-)

I've already stated them LD. A nice gentle wind down of the UK pound through QE and managed inflation. Incentives for local agriculture and exports (a weakened pound will do it loads of favours). I'd change the law to stifle nimbys on renewable energy, subsidise nuclear, emphasise public transport, offer tax breaks to small business. I'd tax private cars to death, subsidise taxi firms and put infrastucture in place to support it (you can get a taxi to your door in 3 mins in most places in Singapore by SMS). I'd be looking very closely at education, trying to emphsasis vocational qualifications and skills rather than rote learning (everyone can find Google these days, it's interpretation and execution that's needed). I'm an absolute convert in the last few weeks to a Land Value Tax (thanks to Carnelli) so that would be in place. And loads more... ;-)

LD if you want to exploit resources you need to put in place the infrastucture to do so. Since this requires an investment before the returns can be realised, whatever happens you're talking about a loan of some kind. A loan must have a both interest and regulation to be effective, otherwise they'd never be paid back. Since barter doesn't work in two way exchanges (the bloke who has the oranges you want might not want your tomatoes, he might want a mobile phone) you always need a currency. So unless you go all Pol Pot on us, you need banks. That's it. Regarding community ownership of property, I'm simply surprised that someone of your experience is trying to talk sensibly about this being a realistic option. You were pointing out yourself that the kids looting were disenfranchised from a personal stake in their society. People in communist societies don't think that they're part owners of the land - they think they own nothing. Communist societies disenfranchise the entire population.

NN - the pound has already devalued - it dropped by a third over a period of three months only a couple of years ago. We didn't have Belarus did we? Don't try and claim that the recent riots had anything to do with international currency exchange rates from 2 years ago will you? Daft.

You know that inflation is a good thing, yes? You're not actually labouring under the belief that inflation is a bad thing? Why do you think governments have inflation targets? It's not to keep them down, it's to keep them at the right level - it's to keep the incentive to trade and hence keep the economy turning over. Slightly raised inflation targets can do a great deal to address balance of trade issues - particularly accelerated labour demands. Why do you think the UK kept out of the Euro? It was to retain the freedom to devalue the pound. You seriously know nothing about economics at all do you? And as for the fact that you're scared of the government turning all jackboots... oh good grief. Sky falling on your head etc.?

LD, I think you're confusing wanting something to happen with it actually happening. All you're likely to see is a long and rather dull climb down for the UK from its currrent economic pedestal. It'll be driven, sensibly, by QE and inflation weakening the pound and increasing the price of imports. In turn this is likely to increase the amount of UK land given over to agricultural use, and a greater 'fashion' for seasonal produce. UK energy production will gently sway towards nuclear and renewables. The UK will continue to develop its service driven economy. No worries, no great hassle. Conversely, your vision lies in chaos, either because you feel that the destruction of society will give you a second chance to aim for personal goals you currently feel are out of reach, or because if you can't reap the benefits of organised society you don't want anyone else to have them either ;-)

The Matrix? Says it all really. ;-)

I understand ibilly99, it's good to get the confirmation - you're all in 'panic first' mode as we suspected ;-)

*Hooks out furry pork pie from under chaise longue with a bent coathanger, much to the protests of Michael Paleologus, who now finds his PVC biker jacket sliding off the antimacassar*

What time of the year?

ibilly99, Niall Ferguson is postulating a hypothesis, not stating a fact. Can you not tell the difference? Can I add that Ferguson sees the real problem as being not the financial system itself, but... "the public at large [..] a complex adaptive system is in big trouble when its component parts lose faith in its viability." Can you see what he's saying there? He's saying that if we find ourselves in trouble, it won't be because of the policy wonks, it'll be because of idiots like you trying to destroy people's confidence. I'm sure that gives you a sense of power, and that's why you do it. Frankly I shall subject you to the ridicule you deserve for embarking on such a pointless exercise.

Nobody is denying there is a 'big picture' going on - what people are suggesting is the the hysterical 'end of the world is nigh' rants accusing everybody of being liars and cheats, that we're all going to be eating out of the gutter, is totally without a sense of proportion. All this screaming about government debt is spectacularly poorly informed. In fact government debt is hovering around the lowest points it's been in the last 100 years. The thing is, none of the doomsayers give a shit about the facts, the truth - you all just want to get together and scream about how it's all going to be terrible. You're not even original in this... Here's another flagellant: http://www.schwulencity.de/versohlt/mittelalterlicherFlagellantItalien17JH.jpg

I think problems like this are unlikely to be solved when we don't understand that we were the ones that generated it - you can't blame other people for giving us what we demanded. All this talk of thieves and liars totally misses the point. It's just convenient to blame other people.

You lost me there pk ;-)

Smoke?

Not having a great day today AFN? Think about time zones ;-)

*bell tolls*

LM's jam pan is the source of much divinity....