Huguenot

Alan - there isn't going to be a Bakerloo line extension in our lifetimes. I'm not sure why you keep saying this? Is this because (I quote) "In short it's well worth telling people they're going to get a tube even if there is no intention of delivering as long as it's believeable."? Everybody on the thread has seen this in your comment above, so now it seems you're just deliberately peddling misinformation? You're right about Denmark Hill being included in the second phase of the East London Line. It'll be available around 2015 It's not a question of maps, it's a question of purview. London Underground when underground has internal maps of their own infrastructure. If you buy an Oystercard you'll get the overland routes as well as that's a TFL document. The North London Line has a better case for amalgamation into the LU network, as it's isolated and the lines for the most part don't get used by anyone else. The LBridge/Victoria stretches are used by various intercity services.

It would be interesting to know the psychology behind that - arguably the recycling needs less time and attention. Hence the key drivers are neither cost nor effort. Hate perhaps?

An acquaintance of mine, having been excluded from bars frequently in his youth for excessive letching, now likes to press his nose and hands up against windows whilst reviewing the chattel inside. I'm assured it leaves a very satisfying dual-condensation rocket trail and has a surprising impact on the customers.... ;-)

Watched the 'Real Story' outtake on recycling oop North last night (as did earlier poster). The council (somwhere like South Shields) had a massive problem with zero recycling and consequently reduced bin collections from weekly to fortnightly. There was no desire to hit customers in the pocket, but through the outrageous stink they managed to make people extremely conscious of rubbish instead of taking it for granted. Predictable onslaught of outrageoued t@ssers ensued: assaults on binmen, police and council workers. Quote of the programme "I have a right to throw my rubbish away", petitons to council on health and safety, pocket scientists claiming black death and cholera. How hard do people squirm to avoid doing what is right, when it doesn't cost them a penny? How many of the readers of this post are doing just that; claiming it's a cash problem as a false objection? Recycling rates 1 year later: 45%

Well, those are just lobbying groups - we could always form a lobby group if you wished? We'd probably need to create a lobby website, collect names and email addresses from local commuters at rush hour, and form a community. Local councillors tend to respond well to numbers of people. I don't support the logic of Southern's argument. Gatwick Express goes every 15 mins between 5am and very late. There's no reason why it should have an isolated impact on morning rush hour (coming back in the evening seems to work well until after about seven.

Why don't you try this lady.

*considers... DM and M behind the japanese screen together...?*

Ah yes - do you know here is the link. It costs three quid payable by debit card online. Leah perhaps that's a good place to start for eviction?

Good fer me - but I'd start a new thread saying 'Next Forum Meet-Up 4th or 11th March' and then change the title when you've got a consensus. CPT's great for me!

Unfortunately you're not in a great position to evict them if the property isn't yours :'( Noise abatement notices can be served, contact Southwark Council as per this page. Having suffered this, I can't recommend strongly enough that you start the process immediately. If you wait three months until you've reached the end of your tether, you'll still have to take another 3 months to go through the process and that'll drive you insane. Please do download the noise diary and start filling it in now - if the problem goes away then you've wasted 20 secs, if it threatens to stay then you've created a lifesaver! Best of luck! PS Anyone know how you go about finding an original owner?

Sorry Geh - I didn't want this to come across like a personal bash! I was just responding to 'denial and avoidance' views in general, as they are supported broadly by those who make little effort on behalf of the environment. I can see Henry VIII's point on this one, so unlike Thomas More I'm going to make sure my silence does not come across as tacit agreement. I'd like to see those who don't act on the environment to be seen in the same light as drink drivers and street hooligans. It should be socially and morally unacceptable. By the time I start pushing up the daisies it will be, I'm just trying to do my bit to make sure we're not too late. PS Bob, I didn't mention solar panels and windmills, because the only scientifically recognised solution is (as James said) to cut consumption. As for lightbulbs, I thought this thread was about local reaction to 'An Inconvenient Truth'?

I'm glad maraudeur chauve, but honestly it's not difficult to come to that conclusion when you go to places like China. The people are lovely, but it's incredibly dispiriting to see container lorries go past with rubbish on them brought by leviathan from the UK. As for the smog, I showed this photo on an other thread: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/251005131_f450721435.jpg?v=0 This is the link back It was a view from my 28th storey flat window at 3pm. It isn't fog, BJ is dry as dust, that's heavy metals and chemicals from the factories which aren't paid enough by western companies to install filtration systems. That's not because western companies are bastards, that's because idle minded westerners don't check the provenance of their goods before making a purchase. That's us. We did that. Not them. Us.

Well it's an interesting idea Geh, but taxation isn't pocket money to be given out as treats to good little children. It's a centralised fund to pay for community goods and services. It's already our money. For anyone to say 'I want a tax cut to go green' is to say 'I want to cut healthcare, or teaching, or pensions, or defence spending if I'm going to go green' - it's holding society to ransom. It doesn't matter whether someone agrees with one of those propositions - it's saying 'I'm going to ruin your children's future unless I get my way'. The argument 'I'm not going to do anything because the rest of mankind is selfish' is morally corrupt. The final argument is redundant; it is most certainly not up to us to tell the rest of the world what to do, Kyoto has invited signatures and gained them through negotiation. The other countries have signed because they wanted to; because we're crapping on their doorstep; and because we can't see it from the top of our ivory towers, shielded as we are by our dimmer switches. I'm not even sure what the final argument has to do with anything. For every 65 lightbulbs of energy used by a US citizen, 35 are used by a UK citizen, and 1 by a Chinese person. You think I'm suggesting China needs to cut its use? I lived in China for 18 months, in the squalor and pollution caused by the west's incessant demand for low cost goods without the caveat of pollution controls, labour legislation or social responsibility. These 1.2 billion people are the slaves of the modern world, and it's driven by our incessant western industrialism and consumerism. It's a problem, because they're angry about it now, and they're getting angrier. People who are flippant about environmental and social issues just don't get it. We're in trouble.

We're currently at almost 9,000 posts. At the current rate of 150 posts a day we're going to hit 10,000 inside a couple of weeks! Perhaps we should have a whip round and prize for the 10,000th post?

Sure Geh, but I'm just struggling to work out why avoiding destroying the planet is not an incentive in its own right. I mean, presumably you don't expect the government to pay you to avoid dumping crap in your own house? What we're doing at the moment is metaphorically throwing rubbish over our neighbours fence, with the threat of violence if they throw it back. It has three obvious consequences: 1. The neighbours get heavily pissed off at us. 2. Eventually the crap reaches the top of the fence and starts falling back into our own garden. 3. Finally the neighbours come and squat round ours. This doesn't require science, or debates about hockey stick graphs. It's just common sense. When it's that clear we can't support ourselves in a state of denial, we've just got to knuckle down and do something about it.

Hmmm, why aren't there enough services early morning?? Could that perhaps be the unions creating a service which is convenient for their employees, but a nonsense for the travelling public?

Yes Cap'n - ten mins from ED to London Bridge and then no more than a moonwalk to Monument?

Aha! An angry Roman dries no towels... or something. Domitianus, it's mentioned earlier on I think, but official policy is that bank card fraud is no longer reportable direct to the police, it must be reported to the banks who will then report to the police as they see fit. I understand from my IFA that this is due to some complicated 'against whom is the crime committed' plonker logic.

Inclined to agree with Mockney. If people won't buy more environmentally friendly products until they get a 'fiscal incentive' then we are ruined. It may be that I'm further away from retirement than geh, but it'll be a struggle telling my grand children that I destroyed their life and their future because I was holding out for a discount.

*Decides to open loo window to gain ourselves an enlivening spring breeze, greeted by....* http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/251005131_f450721435.jpg?v=0 *Hurriedly slams window closed, grips cistern momentarily to overcome vertigo, and then seeks out Keef to explain where I'm getting it wrong* PS Piersy, it never worked, after I went back 5 times, it refused to accept the "/" existed in the post itself, but it always reappeared in the text when I went back to edit...

There were quite a few reasons why the tube wasn't extended, and none of them are related to chip some of us sarveners get on the subject. Back in the 19th century north London railway companies developed an extensive and profitable long distance journey business. As a result they stuck two fingers up at north London commuters, because setting up a local commuting service would involve massive infrastucture costs and only be proftable for the short peak hours. South London conversely had very little long distance traffic, and so by default had to develop an extensive local rail network. When the tube lines started to be developed planners became aware that it would also be considerably more expensive to install south of the river than north, because the whole are is one giant clay aquifer - it 'breathes' dependent upon rainfall (one of the reasons so many of us suffer from subsidence), and that creates havoc for buried tunnel networks. Couple that extra cost with the fact that we had an excellent (and soon electrified) rail network (which meant there was no guarantee of high numbers of customers), and the plans very quickly got shelved. I'm often confused by the resentment and sense of exclusion that generates - the "South London Tube Map" is a great example. The fact is that all of these places on the map almost invariably are well served by train. Many people are becoming excited by the prospect of the "East London Line" without being aware that this line will run on existing railway lines!

Agreed P's F. I'm a bit confused by Alan's observations too. I'm not aware that Camberwell is more pricey than ED either, C'well has a higher crime rate and a singularly more down-at-heel feel to it. As for transport links, many punters mean 'no tube' when they say limited public transport, but that's often because they're not familiar with the train service. It goes every 10 mins during the day. You don't have to be that clever to arrive when it'll only be a 3/4 min wait - just like the tube. I work in Kentish Town, and it's far faster, more predictable and more comfortable by train than by tube on the Northern Line (down to Tulse Hill and back up on the Thameslink). I'm sure there are places in ED you can live where buses aren't that accessible, but surely that's the same anywhere?

No, she went in a Honda Accord

No, she went of her own accord. My sister went to Hertfordshire...

My wife went to the Carribean!