heartblock

? Didn't know I was trying to discredit - as I have said I'm very much in favour of ULEZ expansion myself, although I believe the scrappage scheme is inadequate for poorer families and individuals who live in low PTAL areas and depend on their car for work/school run and as carers. I do wish this personal stuff would stop. I have just gone to the bother to find the paper (excellent authors - I think I have come across Marc's work on OSA and COPD) and it's just another personal attack. How about posting with respect towards other posters at all times? Also from my point of view research is research, opinion is opinion. I personally wouldn't have a vaccination based on opinion, but I would based on research. So I'm not sure long posts regurgitating opinion furthers a cause, even one I agree with, others may think differently?

Right a bit of searching has found the article (open access) https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac30c1 The paper is quite nice as actually does look at pollution - so an empirical measure rather than using a tenuous measure of actual pollution. Prof Graham is also an excellent statistician. excerpts Additionally, comparing the trend in different years, the most rapid pollution reductions generally occurred before the launch of the ULEZ. As other cities consider implementing similar schemes, this study implies that the ULEZ on its own is not an effective strategy in the sense that the marginal causal effects were small. On the other hand, the ULEZ is one of many policies implemented to tackle air pollution in London, and in combination these have led to improvements in air quality that are clearly observable.

Vehicle Excise Duty (road tax) brings in £7 billion a year to central Government, fuel duty - £28 billion a year. After CPZ on East Dulwich Grove there is definitely less parked cars and I'm not against CPZ, as long as there is provision for trades parking / short term visitor parking and some free parking around shopping areas such as LL to help businesses. I just wish Southwark used some of the income to repair the terrible pavements and poor road surfaces on EDGrove and keep the pavements clean and free of abandoned e-bikes. Sometimes walking to Herne Hill station is like an obstacle course.

Completely agree Sue - in my written complaint to the noise team, I also expressed my concern for welfare, as small children around a distressed dog - no action has been taken at all. If there are several complaints about noise at night as in Ronnijade's case - I just don't understand why the Noise Team doesn't take a more pro-active stance. We are after all, paying for this service.

Yep that's my experience. Still it's worth pursing - do also complain to your local Councillor.

Try calling the Southwark noise team when it’s happening and I hope you have better luck than me. We have a barking, whining dog near us - which we have never seen walked. My concerns of welfare as well as the hours of whining - reported 3 times have not been acted on and they require active noise to come out and investigate. Have tried twice and both times they failed to turn up. This despite my written concerns about a young child in the presence of a distressed dog. RSPCA next. I think the council policy should be one of active intervention if it’s an ongoing compliant.

Even peer review, does not guarantee the quality of research. There are some 'studies' (peer reviewed? ) that show that submitted papers with error built in to 'test' review have been 'passed' as accurate. The best advice to anyone reading published research is to "critically appraise articles .... to maximise the chance of catching mistakes that have been missed during the peer-review process". There is some excellent training on Critical Appraisal Skills, to enable interested parties to use checklists designed for use with Systematic Reviews, Randomised Controlled Trials, Cohort Studies, Case Control Studies, Economic Evaluations, Diagnostic Studies, and Qualitative studies. I haven't read that particular Prof. Kelly's report or study - is there a link? He has contributed to the understanding of toxic effects of particulate pollution on the respiratory and cardiovascular systems and published key papers on the toxicological mechanisms of ozone, nitrogen dioxide and particulate matter pollution, but I'm not sure which report you are all discussing here?

? again very weird... yep totally support ULEZ and CPZ, not sure what all this pro and anti business is anyway. I'm certainly 'pro' anything that contributes to less pollution. There isn't a 'blob' of anti or a 'blob' of pro (how very Boris of you). I know it's useful to be reductive and class anyone who takes issue with LTNs as 'anti' this and 'anti' that, there is nuance and difference. It's a dangerous path to just lump people into a group and decide they are all the same and think the same, some very dangerous attitudes stem from that type of generalisation. Yes sort of agree - but there is a scrappage scheme, so why not encourage EVs? I would absolutely support more spent on PT, even at the point of free at the point of use, or highly subsidised. Please don't decide my gender/sex for me.

? Just so weird. People ‘looking for dirt’. Isn’t it a good idea for people to research any claim or to read about stuff in general, I mean honestly ..even I a supporter of ULEZ and CPZ find this patronising and rather weird tone.... mainly because it’s patronising and weird. Anyway, batteries are very safe in general, and I think most reports are privately owned electric scooters charged at home. Hopefully more cash will go into battery technology, bigger steps are needed in terms of cleaner manufacturing and longevity of charge. Electric cars are a real step forward, it would be great if central government funded a scrappage and electric car replacement scheme. Be aware though that electric cars to have tyre wear and can contribute to particulate matter if stopping and starting in idling traffic, especially over speed bumps.

Maybe James feels the same way about Starmer as both Mr. Chicken and I do.. see we can agree on some things, but has now decided that his change from Marxist to Socialist may change to Centrist in a career swerving adjustment to his personal politics. All I know is that certain actions were alluded to in order to improve pollution, traffic and noise on East Dulwich Grove, before the local elections with lots of contact and engagement and now....... no engagement with our local resedential group.

I think enthusiasm for an intervention means that one can fail to recognise confirmation bias sometimes, which can lead to this type of behaviour when challenged, imposing their own agenda and cherry-picking confirmative information and rejecting negative information.

Blind is different from double blind. Blind would involve analysis without knowing if treated or untreated. So one passes the data to an independent statistician, it’s a very easy way of not being unintentionally biased. Unintentional bias, is something all researchers have, we are all very keen to do good and improve lives, I have no doubt that the ethics and morals of the research group are for the greater good, but I do believe the published data and methodology is flawed and they have allowed their enthusiasm for this intervention to lessen their awareness of bias. Some low traffic interventions may work well if planned to take account of types of traffic, external factors and unique situations. So this is the issue in Dulwich/East Dulwich. Private School traffic, non-local traffic, neighbouring boroughs with traffic interventions that impact Southwark, important bus routes in low PTAL areas and combination of several interventions on other residential roads have made this not a well planned intervention. The lack of any information for over a year from Southwark and the poor response and attempt to suppress a TFL report all fits into this inability to recognise bias and look at data and monitoring in a logical and neutral manner. Councillors ‘wanting blood’ because a TFL report proves a negative result of LTNs is very revealing.

Hi ab29- Complex - as FOI's only had limited success for transparency. Just google Southwark Council TFL Catherine Rose Dale Foden and the e-mails from the TFL FOI will come up Catherine Rose complaining to Will Norman about the report as it doesn't paint a positive picture and says it was 'intended to show improved bus journey times' on Croxted Rd, when the report say's the opposite Leeming, Newens, Rose complaining to Will Norman about having to 'push back' against an independent report. Newens at one point describing the TFL report having 'lazy assumption'. Dale Foden reminding Councillors to go through officers, rather than bombarding the poor TFL community partnership officer. " Our councillors want to see blood" says Dale Foden to John Birch (TFL) at one point. The two TFL technical officers were then subject to abuse at the Council meeting, leaving upset and in tears. The TFL report was weirdly released to local paper by TFL, but it appears to have been smothered after that....but Southwark News has some detail. The e-mails make for an interesting read.

Critique of research is taught at undergraduate level - critical analysis, it's not a personal attack, but you are correct, I shouldn't use 'pish'. Maybe poor methodology, badly conceived, no baseline, no control areas, incomplete and second hand data-collection, lack of rigour, lack of blinding, no set procedures to empirically test whether a finding is reproducible and poor use of statistics and a lack of transparency ..... in my opinion. I've commented on air pollution for over 30 years, mainly in the realm of cardiovascular and respiratory inflammatory processes, away from this forum - so yes you do not see my output. As for unwarranted attacks, I have no doubt that the excellent administrator looking after this forum will very quickly shut down anything they consider contravening a protected characteristic and if you think this has happened you have a duty to report it. As for TFL report Cllr Catherine Rose definitely wanted this 'report' from TFL to disappear. It's all been up on EDF in the past... you obviously missed it.

TFL reported that LTNs in Dulwich and Herne Hill were responsible for increased traffic on Croxted Road. ULEZ and CPZ both tackle car usage and pollution across the borough and seem to have good empirical research to back up. I would welcome speed cameras on my road after witnessing the death of someone involved in an accident outside of my home one late evening. There are some great examples of council run local transport services, such as the yellow bus in Brighton that I suggested years ago. Mr. Chicken seems set on being sarcastic, patronising and likes to gaslight anyone they disagree with, by labelling them ‘pro-car’ ‘anti-clean air’ .. declaring that no one has any sensible solutions or suggestions. We are obviously all complete fools and can barely understand the superior mind of this feathered individual. Sadly the same patronising, patriarchal and unseemly attack, happens to Rosamund Adoo Kissi-Debrah, clean air advocate and a very vocal campaigner against LTNs. Rosamund describes the surge in traffic by her home, “like a slap in the face” “insane” and “environmental racism”, “gloating that your children can now go out and play or cycle does not help things” , “It’s as if now that the traffic is not in their neighbourhood, they are not concerned where the traffic is”.

Well that’s the issue. Not everyone believes that LTNs are ‘anti-pollution’, mainly because there is no empirical data in existence that proves that LTNs reduce pollution. I wish they did, unfortunately from the view of those living on Croxted Rd walking their kids to school LTNs have increased both noise and air pollution by diverting traffic from four residential roads to one ‘sacrificial’ residential road - backed up by the TFL report to Southwark Council.

To my shame I have never read this document fully until today, very enlightening. https://www.transportforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Pave-The-Way-full-report.pdf

Agreed, which is weird as I’m always being told that very old A roads in existence pre 1860 such as East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane were ‘built and designed for cars'.

Comparing proof of the nature of our planetary system is a poor comparison, it isn’t research into an intervention. One wouldn’t give a population a drug that might harm certain sectors of society until it was proven that it did no harm. We went through this with Thalidomide. Anything applied to an individual or population without consent that may adversely effect a cohort in that population should be proven to do no harm, then it should be proven to give the effect required. Mmmh well that’s definitive then... I’m told that LTNs are an intervention that benefits the health of a population by encouraging active travel and reducing car use, so a public health intervention? So in any public health intervention, harm may be experienced by different individuals than those who receive benefits. One ethical framework suggests that, “… the greater the burden imposed by a program, the greater must be the expected public health benefit, and the more uneven the benefits and burdens (that is, burdens are imposed on one group to protect the health of another), the greater must be the expected benefit”.

When someone publishes research with: empirical data and double-blinded analysis on a pre and post methodology that proves that pollution over a specified area that includes boundary roads and LTNs, proves a significant drop in overall car, exhaust and tyre wear pollution post implementation - I will cross the Rubicon and become a very vocal advocate of LTNs.

I think the onus is on those applying the 'treatment' to prove that it does no harm, not on the patient who has been forced onto the treatment without consent. You sound like an ancient quack blood-letting to do some good. 'go on, prove that this doesn't work' - Good try Dr. Sea-lion. But....... as you asked so nicely, Prof. Alfred and Dr. Goodman's Longitudinal study into mini-Holland scheme, the 'poster-boy/girl' of every subsequent scheme found........ No evidence either way of change in car use associated with interventions So, that's one for you Dr. Sea-Lion. Do you want the link? I'm sure you have already read it though.. I bet you loved the bit where they talked about 'perceived' improvements in cycling. We love it when 'perception' replaces actual data... especially when applying leeches.

Mr. Chicken seems to be a seal-lion and not poultry. 'Lessons learnt' in both the articles that are available are not primary research, but conclusions based on meta-analysis (the third article appears to be a Childs drawing) and neither article is about LTNs but a variety of measures to reduce car use - many of them seemingly very sensible. Again do upload the primary, empirical research that proves LTNs reduce pollution and car-miles travelled. As this is a health-intervention - as promoted by LTN advocates - then we should all expect the same research standard as a pharmaceutical drug or procedure. First do no harm. Second have a positive effect.

Remind me of the research that empirically proves LTNs reduce pollution and car USE/ congestion and pollution? Car use was dropping in London pre-Covid (TFL data) and cycling was increasing (TFL data), traffic was not increasing on minor roads TFL data in response to FOI request when ‘increasing traffic on minor roads’ was used by Councils to justify LTNs on minor roads - TFL later admitted the ‘increase’ was due to an administrative exercise and in fact traffic on minor rds was stable and in some cases reducing. There was an increase in traffic and congestion on larger rds though.... LTNs really are green-washing, and actually make an excuse that something is being done, it’s a bit like huge companies having carbon offsets to excuse their polluting activities, bring in ULEZ, bring in cheap, reliable publicly owned and I would encourage free at the point of use public transport, also close all private schools and get kids to go to fully funded and locally accessible state run schools. LTNs are centrist pish.

There is NO evidence that School streets and LTNs discourage parents of private schoolchildren to drive. The older ‘research’ on evaporating traffic was based on local car ownership and interviews with local residents active travel. Not ACTUAL traffic on boundary rds. The recent research that claimed traffic reduction on boundary rds was flawed as many rds inside LTNs were erroneously classified as boundary rds outside of LTNs. Pish

The thing is..it’s not simple because parents, carers do. The whole evaporation thing is complete pish. I cycled or walked to school, the problem here in ED is the private school catchment area and poor PTAL in that same catchment area. Southwark Council did not factor in private school traffic in their ‘plan’ because there was no plan. I never see kids dropped off at the non-private school on ED Grove but JAGs, Alleyn’s and the School on Half Moon are a joke....parents parked illegally and idling in their very large cars, transporting one child. The parents are not local and really don’t care about polluting my road. The real story is that In ED and Dulwich there has been high levels of active travel for years, which has been increasing steadily. School streets are a great idea, but when mixed with large numbers of poorly conceived LTNs and selfish non-locals transporting one child to a private school it impacts residents negatively.