LegalEagle-ish

But Snorky, that's exactly what I am doing.

The relevance of the fact they memorised stuff a lot was that the original disciples wrote their accounts a few years after the fact, and they were more likely to have remembered incidents acurately than modern people because they were used to using their memories instead of relying on the written word. Most people didn't read or write and relied on scribes to write down what they wanted to say, but because they could not rely on the written word as much as we do today, they would have been used to telling their stories from memory, in the oral tradition of the day. The fact that the original scrolls of the disciples accounts are written in Greek and not Aramaic, which was their native tongue, points to the fact that they dictated their accounts to scribes so probably could not read or write. It is interesting to note tho, that they used a common-man version of Greek apparantly, instead of the more difficult to understand Greek used by scientific and philosophical writers.

The New Testament was originally written between ad 40-100 by four of Jesus's diciples. Copies of these manuscripts were made in their thousands between ad 130 and ad 350, so the gap between the original events and their first being written down was between 8 and 60 years. This was in a time of oral history and memorising swathes of the holy books of the Torah, so the historical acuuracy, especially of the eye witness accounts is probably far more accurate than other historical accounts which have a far bigger time lapse between the event and it's written record we rely on. Also there are other independent records from historical figures who had no affiliation to the early Christians who back up a lot of what is in the bible.

I think you may be right Microbite. It does say in the bible that the devil was thrown out of heaven to reside on earth and that when Jesus comes back, it will be when it's all gone tits up. Then Jesus seperates out the absolute sinners from the weak nd the good and Jesus with the help of all the angels will have up the devil and chain him up in a big pit for another couple of thousand years. So the weak get a chance to be good with the good people and no devil around. I think it's then that we get the second chance to repent and follow God's law but the devil gets released for a bit more just to see who follows him, and who follows God. So then you get the final judgement and firey pits and stuff.

The abuses of the Bible by churches and religious leaders, does not mean that what Jesus taught was wrong. He was anti-the-powerful and was always fighting for the disenfrachised and excluded. If someone uses religion as their power base, that is about their ambitions, not about Jesus.

Haha, yeh, i totally understand. I've been in east Dulwich for 2 years now and have only just managed to find a church I like. I was used to a more personal sort of introduction to the bible before, so can't really do the going through the motions sort of church. The one I go to is All Saints in Peckham and I find them really inspiring all round. They do a lot of different stuff including community outreach and 0% interest business start ups for local Peckhma peeps. The church is really big which was not my cup of tea at first, but there are a lot of small groups which is what I prefer. I'll let you know if the Alpha course turns out to be nuts or not tho!! Quite promising so far.

I know, that's why I'm keeping my mind open and digging a bit deeper. I still think the same can be said for most books written about any historical event or figure. The tone or content of it will reflect the bias of the writer. As thinking human beings we need to try to seperate what is their slant from what actually happened - but then we also have to figure in our own bias! Truth finding is a very subjective thing, it seems!

There were thousands of copies of the new testament made from the original from ad 130, and some of those copies still exist today. There are more early copies of the books of the bible than materiel used for other accepted ancient history. Modern translators of the bible use the earliest copies of the original greek scrolls for their translations, so the twisting and turnings of various church leaders (who incidently banned the use of the bible in many instances) have less effect than you think.

Pretty much the same with all of ancient and not so ancient history.

Reincarnation was never a part of the Jewish religion and as Jesus was a Jew who studied and taught the Torah it is very unlikely that he would have added reincarnation as the Eastern religions understand it because it would have been totally out of sync with the rest of his teachings.

The whole owning slaves bit and other equally grim stuff in the Old Testament has put me off the Old Testament a lot. I like bits of it though, but I am mostly into the New Testament. I think growing up as an athiest I'm able to delve into all this stuff without the baggage a few of you seem to have. It would be like when I started studying electronics thinking it would be really interesting and after a couple of months deciding it wasn't my thing. If I hadn't ever begun studying it, I wouldn't have known it wasn't my thing. I've been delving into various bits of Christianity for the past 8 years and find some of it inspiring and really interesting. Other bits and other people's spin on bits of it, I find less inspiring and interesting. I think if you have an open enquiring mind, you can get a lot from looking into what Jesus was about whether you beleive him to be the son of God or not. Obviuosly I am aware of the contoversies about what is in and what may have been left out, but why should that stop me from delving deeper? That just makes me want to dig out whatever thruth I can even more. I'm an obsessive person anyway - I was just as evangelical about excercise when I was totaly into excercise, martial arts and nutrition. Then I got really into law and politics. Then I was evangelical about Green issues. It's my nature to dig and discover as much as I can about subjects that inspire me. Far more interesting than Eastenders in my opinion!

david_carnell Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Espelli - VAT on ready-meals is an interesting > one. The supermarkets and manufacturers of said > meals would go ape-shit at the idea but it's worth > more exploration. Perhaps coupled with the > "carrot" of further education in home economics > (heavily discounted for those on low-incomes) in > order for healthy eating to be more easily > achieved. > > Indiepanda - have PM'd you about those books. > Thanks. I'm not sure it is just people on benefits > who have tight budgets for food these days. The tv > programme highlighted whole families from Leeds, > with seemingly both parents working, and in the > current climate everyone is considering cut-backs. > Food items are often the first to suffer. I'm in > agreement over the issue of time and education > being the key to healthy food though, as opposed > to budget. However, Britons work the longest hours > in Europe - not something conducive to "slow-food" > (of which I am a big advocate - see here). In the past the poorer sections of the community (see I'm not saying the word class here!) used to keep rabbits and grow potatoes etc to spplement the food they bought. They used to buy cheaper cuts of meat and cook at home. Poor areas of Jamaica are still like that. The fact that we have all been encouraged to work our arses off if we are in work and consume like crazy, paving or decking over any bit of garden we have has increased or dependancy on ready cooked food over wheich we have no control. I have been fairly poor for ages and working my arse off more recently too - but I try to eat food we cook at home from basic ingredients and cycle to work. This works out cheaper and will hopefully be cheaper for the NHS in the long run! But it takes extra effort and when I'm exhausted I just grab some toast (wholemeal of course!) and an awareness of nutrition. My cooking skills are monotonous but healthy!

I already believe in God. I just want to find out more about the original teachings of Jesus. I'm also interested in the history and content of other religions and wanted to start a course on the quoran on Monday, but was unable to but am lookingh forward to the next one. It's really strange to me that people have such strong reactions to studying this kind of stuff. I love knowledge of all kinds and this is knowledge that is thought provoking and fits in quite well with my anti-consumer, alternative, simple view of how life might be lived to increase happiness. The right wing neo-con types seem to me to be so far from what Jesus was teaching, that I am surprised they are even accepted as Christians. What I have discovered so far is that Jesus taught the total opposite of what the neo-cons and their ilk stand for.

Go DM!!

I'm quite a stubborn person and it's pretty much impossible to coerce me into doing or believing anything I don't want to so I'm not too worried. I've been to Seventh Day Adventist bible studies and told them that I wasn't into learning about their prophet, Ellen G White, so if they can't extricate her stuff from their bible teachings, then I don't want to know. It takes a while to get the low down on the Ellen G white stuff, but I am a nosey, curious person so was always digging. I also did bible studies with Jehova Witnesses for about 6 months and compared what they taught with what was said in my King James Bible and their version. Most of what they taught was true to both bibles, but the some of it was in my opinion rubbish, such as the need for women to wear skirts and dresses because it says in the bible that women should wear womens garb and men should wear men's garb - they didn't have much to say when I pointed out that they all wore dresses back then, so why is it only women are congined to dresses now? I love learning about the bible because I was brought up an athiest by a mad scientist, communist father and after certain experiences in my life have come to believe that God and Jesus exist. Now I just want to try to get to know them better. So I don't think I am weak or vulnerable, just very interested in finding out more about who Jesus really was and what he really stood for. To do this I want to try to strip away all the sectarian, manipulative add-ons and find out what was actually written about him from as early as it all happened as possible. If they try to get me barking like a dog or chatting crap 'in tongues', I'll let you all know forthwith!!

Nothing is ever 100% certain. You can evaluate the facts available and make as good a determination of the truth as you can - that's about all you can do. That's why I'm looking to do more about my knowledge in this area and keepingmy mind open, but I always question anything that does not seem to be backed up by facts. I think immediately dismissing something without assessing the evidence available is the wrong way to go about determining the truth.

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that there were dinosaurs and evolution - I don't see why the presence of a creator and evolution of what he created need to be mutually exclusive. Like creating a cake - you mix all the ingredients together and let them evolve into a cake in the oven. The seven days doesn't need to be literal and even if it is, the bible says that God's time is different to ours, so a day to him could be millenia to humans.

They feed you too - so you should just try one - at least you will have a nice free meal if nothing else. It's more about examining the evidence and asking you to ask all the questions you want to - it's not like some kind of brain washing hypnotism. There is a lot of discussion and debate. A bit like here then. I found the historical evidence really interesting.

I became a Christian about 2001 and have done various bible study courses and stuff since then. I decided to give the 10 week Alpha course a go last night at All Saints church and my first session was last night. It was brilliant. It wasn't soppy or about trusting fairh, it gave loads historical evidence to back up the existance of Jesus and was really interesting. I am quite a sceptical, cynical even, type of person and all the questions I had plus way more were explored and satisfactory answers given. I challange any athiest or agnostic to complete the Alpha course and not change their thinking. Here is a link to the National Alpha website. edited for spelling

As a matter of interest, DPF what is your nationality?

"The Government of the United Kingdom fully complies with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking. Over the last year, U.K. authorities continued to launch aggressive anti-trafficking law enforcement efforts to uncover trafficking and identify victims." p39 US Report on Trafficking in Persons 2008 "The Government of Israel does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. This year, the government increased the number of convictions for sex trafficking offenses, and conducted a campaign to prevent forced labor. Israel also continues to provide victims of sex trafficking with shelter and protection assistance. Nonetheless, though the government prepared some indictments for forced labor, it did not criminally prosecute or convict any employer or recruitment agent for labor trafficking. In addition, the government still does not provide forced labor victims with adequate protection services, such as appropriate shelter, or medical and psychological assistance." p12 US Report on Trafficking in Persons 2008

Did you know that in 1964 Martin Luther King predicted that there would be a black president of the United States within 40 years - he was only 4 years out - so maybe Obama really is the messiah!

Sorry Keef - just an interesting fact that I thought I'd share! Also heard on Radio 4 this morning that the ratio of Israeli to Paelstinian deaths in this latest little scuffle was 1 to 100 respectively. Do you still think it's a balanced conflict?

And just incase anyone wants to really get stuck into some reading on Israel - here is a link I use for country of origin information when I do asylum and immigration appeals. You can get useful info on loads of different countries on there.

Yes, but the Israeli Jewish state is not. That was an artificial construction imposed in the region after the second world war by the west, to give the western powers a foothold in the oil rich Arab countries with which they could destablize and divide the Arab world. DPF - Just thought as a feminist and supposedly left-ish leaning person, that you would like to know that Israel is one of the lead destination countries for trafficked women. "Israel remains one of the main world destinations for trafficked women and while significant efforts were made to eliminate trafficking through a series of criminal convictions and the launch of a national plan, more attention needs to be paid to rehabilitation of victims including housing and medical service support." from COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, STAFF WORKING DOCUMENT on Israel at p10