HAL9000

Actually, I've developed an almost irresistible urge to stab a wheelie-bin. I'm curious to see whether a well-plunged Fairburn Sykes would pierce all the way through the plastic?

I thought it was an interesting and legitimate topic for discussion. I didn't expect to become part of the problem, though, that was a surprise. I've learnt a lot from the thread - it's been a journey of self-discovery, in some respects. I appreciate your thoughtful input despite not agreeing with you. I don't think I'd be so quick to share a similar experience with the forum again. I hope I didn't come across as not being bothered or not seeing it as an issue - I do take such issues seriously and feel that I have followed through to a resolution that satisfied my social conscience without over reacting. I don't feel any further action is necessary in this case.

Strawbs Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So where is the location for this one? thanks x It's a bit vague but I think it's at the new restaurant that has replaced Coriander.

lenk Wrote: > 'societal collapse' I couldn't resist - it's such a lovely phrase. > is such an emotive > over-reaction to something that always has, and > always will be there. History records that almost all proletariat-led revolutions resulted from the erosion of civil liberties and/or the intolerable taxation needed to support an oppressive regime.

annaj Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I can see that on reflection HAL felt far less > threatened and alarmed by it My initial over reaction may have been due to a previous mugging by three youths - in the same area, as it happens - that had left me very badly injured. > and I respect his > judgement in choosing not to report it. I arrived at that view through a process of deduction. Why were the other witnesses unconcerned - perhaps because the boys were known to them and had a good reputation? A notion reinforced by the reverse logic: why were the boys unconcerned - because they were amongst friends and neighbours? If they were local then it was likely they had used a wheelie-bin belonging to one or both of them - in which case they might be related? And so on. Over the next day or two, I had formulated a hypothesis as to a likely address, their standing within the community, the possibility of sibship and the probability of seeing them again. I felt it was only a matter of time. > As it happens I think HAL approaching them himself > and reasoning with them about their behaviour and > making them see why it might have caused concern > for other people is by far the best solution. The > more that we disengage from young people, through > fear or disinterest, the wider the gap in > understanding between them and us, and the worse > off we as a community are. I'm glad you agree - at times it felt a little uncomfortable being at odds with the consensus view. I strongly believe that anti-social behaviour by our children should be tackled at source - within the family, the community and the educational system - rather than as an afterthought through law enforcement, which, as you say, is more likely to alienate them from social responsibility as adults. Every time we run to the police to ameliorate our own failings, we empower them to usurp evermore of our freedoms and liberties. That?s a quick route to societal collapse, IMHO.

I recall seeing a documentary about the making of The Deer Hunter wherein it was said that researchers had found no evidence that any Vietnam prisoners of war had been subjected to Russian roulette. The movie's Wiki Page illuminates the origin of the idea - it's worth quoting in full, I think: The film began with a spec screenplay called "The Man Who Came To Play", written by Louis Garfinkle and Quinn K. Redeker. The script, while unrelated to the Vietnam War, nonetheless centered on a group of men who travel to Las Vegas to play Russian Roulette. Producer Barry Spikings, who had purchased the script from Garfinkle?Redeker, pitched the story to director Michael Cimino, who then adapted the Russian Roulette idea into a story he was preparing about Pennsylvania steelworkers who go off to Vietnam. Cimino then worked for six weeks with Deric Washburn, before firing him (Cimino and Washburn had previously collaborated with Stephen Bochco on the screenplay for Silent Running). While Garfinkle and Redeker had nothing to do with the writing or filming of The Deer Hunter, they ultimately shared a "Story By" writer's credit with Cimino and Washburn, since Cimino had adapted the Russian Roulette idea from "The Man Who Came To Play" into the film. Cimino would later claim to have written the entire screenplay himself, although a WGA arbitration awarded Washburn sole "Screenplay By" credit. All four writers received an Oscar nomination for Best Original Screenplay for this film.

You are not alone - check this out > Orange Ball In The Sky

Penguin68 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The scenario seems very implausible Not to mention that the OP comes across as either a crafty agent provocateur or a genuine nutcase and has a history of troll-like posts. I'm concerned that third parties have seen fit to propagate reports of this alleged incident beyond the forum and the inherent danger that that implies.

I heard that Elvis had died while I was at the Scheherazade nightclub in Piccadilly celebrating the conclusion of an export deal with its two young Iranian owners - the DJ announced it and started playing his songs. I had left my fianc?e sitting in our turquoise Triumph Stag parked outside, she being too young to get into the club. When I returned, I was about to get an earful for having taken so long but when told the news she just lapsed into a melancholy silence - saved by the King. When Diana died, I was dining with friends at a belly-dancing show at the Yilmaz restaurant on LL. Edited to make sense (see Brendan's quote of my original gibberish below).

PeckhamRose Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I've already emailed the Peckham Rye and Nunhead > Safer Neighbour hood Team I'm sure you mean well but let's hope your actions don't set off a train of events that harms a whole generation of innocent Asian schoolboys.

I saw those kids again on Sunday. They were playing football in the same street. They are brothers: very polite, respectful and well spoken. I told them that they had freaked me out and were lucky not to have been arrested. I gave them a stern warning about the potential consequences of that type of behaviour. They were genuinely concerned and apologised profusely. I asked where they got the knives? They weren't knives - they had been sent out to trim a hedge with a small pair of shears that had snapped in the process! I wasn't able to determine exactly what they were doing - all they said was, 'we were only mucking about - having a laugh - just pretending,' etc. Perhaps they didn't understand the question or were too embarrassed to say? I don?t know. Anyway, I'm now doubly glad that I hadn't over-reacted to the original incident.

Domitianus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And you considered the matter > serious enough to take a camera and cruise round > the area, I can only assume in the hope of finding > these youths and capturing photographic evidence > (why else would you have gone back with a camera?) Even if I had been able a identify them, I still don't think I would have been able to bring myself to report them to the police. This thread has convinced me of that - definitely some sort of deep-seated issue at work here.

Well, if nothing else, this thread has sharply contrasted the strength and nature of my feelings towards the police relative to those of the general population (if this forum is a fair representation). The inconsistencies in my approach must be down to this phobia - I do tend to avoid contact with the police wherever possible. I see a great danger in relying on an ever-burgeoning civilian militia to solve problems superficially rather than tackling them at source. An Orwellian nightmare lies at the end of that path. As things stand, we are only one Act of Parliament away from a full-blown police state - an outcome that is probably inevitable in the not too distant future.

Domitianus Wrote: > Since you have either missed or deliberately > misinterpreted all my points Nope - nothing of the sort. > I don't think I'll > bother re-iterating or clarifying any of them, > save to point out your own blatant contradictions. Ok, lets look at that: > You say that kids carrying knives was normal in your day, I don?t know what you mean by "normal" - that's your word, not mine. I said some of my peer group carried knives. > that these kids seem to think their behaviour normal, No. I said they didn?t appear to think they were doing anything wrong. Very different. (Incidentally, without mens rea there is no crime of specific intent under English law.) > that their behaviour DIDN'T horrify you in retrospect - I said "...as much (in retrospect)" - at the time it did bother me, as per the original post. > yet you then go on to suggest that all this 'normal', > 'non-horrifying' behaviour ... Your words again, not mine. > ... says something terrible abut the state of our society?????? An issue raised in a later post under the caveat "Further thoughts on this" ... > What exactly does it say, if it is so normal and not horrifying at all? Again, those aren't my words. You have misrepresented and miscomprehended what I said. There is no contradiction on my part, blatant or otherwise. In response to your question, I think it is reasonable to assume that knives per se are not the underlying cause of the recent epidemic of knife-related crime since they've always been around and their possession remains legal. Therefore, the cause must lie elsewhere within society: it may be a deficiency in either education or upbringing - or some combination of both - or some other factor(s) we have yet to identify. Whatever the cause, it's a disturbing development. I've already stated how I think it should be addressed in an earlier post. > And "...trained by the authorities to kill with a > single stab to the heart..."? I think you have > been reading too many Andy McNabb novels. The Army's Basic Combat Training currently includes the technique of creeping up behind an enemy soldier or sentry and muffling their cries with the left hand whilst thrusting a dagger held in the right hand upwards under the ribcage piercing the heart and left lung. See attached drawing.

Domitianus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don't find either of your posts convincing or > relevant in any way. With regard to the > corruption you refer to in the Lawrence case, it > seems as if the corruption was designed to PROTECT > a guilty party, not frame someone. It is still relevant. If the kid's father is a protected drug dealer or a corrupt copper, where does that leave the witness? Hint: not in a good place. > My reference > to the Lawrence case was designed to illustrate > that, in that case anyway, those who were happy to > lark around pretending to stab people were also > happy enough to do so in real life. If you want something serious to worry about: how about all the young men who have been trained by the authorities to kill with a single stab to the heart and then traumatised in the battle fields of Iraq and Afghanistan before being dumped back into society? > Sure they > weren't convicted, innocent until proven guilty > and all that, but I doubt there are many who > really believe that Norris et al weren't guilty as > sin. I don't think that the Met have ever > seriously considered any other possible suspects. You appear to have one interpretation of the law when it suits you and another when it doesn't. > and running around > with knives is just a normal thing that kids do, It was normal in my youth - the current anomaly is an epidemic of related crimes. We didn?t have that. > then what on earth was the point of your OP????? > Were you really struck with "horror" just because > these lads were vandalising a wheelie-bin???? > Your indignation, as it came across anyway, seemed > to be as much to do with the fact that these > youths were flashing blades around in public! They were doing it in plain view, stopped to let me pass then carried on again. That suggested to me that they did not think they were doing anything wrong. It's not the kids' actions that horrified me so much (in retrospect), it's what their behaviour says about the state of our society - a point I've already made in earlier posts. However, regarding the legality, if they had been practicing in their own backyards, even with 12-inch butchers' knives, it would have been perfectly legal.

How on earth did you manage that?

Domitianus Wrote: > But if you had pulled your finger out at the time > the cops might have come round to catch them in > the act thereby obviating any risk of mistaken > identity. At the time, I wasn't aware that an offence might have been committed (I didn't know about the recent change in the law regarding knives). However, I'm still not convinced that any crime was committed after reading the relevant law (as cited in a previous post). The distinction whereby a 3 inch blade is legal but a 3.25 inch blade isn't seems arbitrary and, frankly, ridiculous. > How would you feel... I've no problem. My conscience is clear. In my youth, most of my peers carried knives and knew how to use them. But we also knew not to run around stabbing wheelie bins in broad daylight.

Domitianus Wrote: > And white youths practicing their stabbing moves > reminds me very much of the secret film of the > suspects in the Steven Lawrence case whilst they > were in custody. And that "evidence" came to nought in yet another classic miscarriage of justice! Reports like this one hardly inspire confidence: "On 25 July 2006, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) announced it had asked the Metropolitan Police to look into alleged claims of police corruption that may have helped hide the killers of Stephen Lawrence. A BBC investigation alleged that the murder inquiry's Det. Sgt. John Davidson had taken money from known drug smuggler Clifford Norris, the father of David Norris, a chief suspect in the investigation. Neil Putnam, a former corrupt police detective turned whistleblower, told a BBC investigation that Clifford Norris was paying Mr Davidson to obstruct the case and to protect the suspects. "Davidson told me that he was looking after Norris and that to me meant that he was protecting him, protecting his family against arrest and any conviction," Putnam said. Davidson denied any such corruption." - Quoted from Stephen Lawrence (accessed 08-Jul-09 at 12:30pm)

Matt: the point I'm making is that I cannot positively identify the two boys in question. The risks of letting loose the dogs of law on that basis are too great given the frequency of miscarriages within our criminal justice system. More importantly, how can kids go through what is supposed to be one of the finest education systems in the world and still not know the difference between right and wrong? Someone has screwed up big time, and it isn?t those kids.

More thoughts on this: The majority are for reporting the incident. Two are against. Kids are programmed to emulate adult behaviour - that's how they learn to integrate into whatever type of society they happen to be born into. When I was a kid we played cowboys and Indians with toy guns and bow and arrows. My kids played with laser pistols and light sabres. Today's kids reflect today's society. They're just copying what they see around them - OUR society. My report would be insufficient to guarantee proper identification. Look at the police and judicial fiasco surrounding the Damilola Taylor case (et al). The risk of yet another great British miscarriage of justice is simply too great given the current hysteria surrounding knife crime, especially in this area. A high-level decision to make an example in this case could lead to their lives being permanently blighted in what is rapidly becoming a corruption-riddled, authoritarian police state. A regime I no longer trust. Their educational and career options would be limited. Their DNA would be entered into the national database. They could lose their liberty. They'd forever be suspects in the eyes of the police. And their travel options would be restricted. They would become second-class citizens in many respects - all for a few minutes of misguided horseplay. Yes, it's shocking. But we created the society they were born into. We are the culprits - not them. Such issues should be addressed by our educational system at a fundamental level - not by the heavy hand of law enforcement as an after thought, in my humble opinion.

cdonline Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I was just wondering, if you are not going to > report it to the police, why you felt the need to > tell this forum. I would have no reservation in reporting the matter to their parents - if I knew who they were. I guess the next best thing is to alert any forum users with teenaged boys so that they can look out for knives. The two lads in question were approx. 12 to 15 years old - I'm not sure that reveals the full picture, though. > If they were attacking the bin in a frenzy, > wouldn't it be in the interests of everyone to at > least alert the authorities. I visited the scene today and examined the wheelie bin. It bears many fresh gouges and scratches where the blades slipped across the surface but there were no signs of actual penetration, surprisingly. Those green council bins must be very tough! I've reviewed the law links posted above and at UK Knife Law: I cannot be sure about the blade lengths. I am aware that the mind often perceives a threat as larger than life so I may have misperceived the blades as being a little longer than they actually were. If the boys had three-inch bladed folding pocketknives then they are legal. I still hold the view that a police report is not justified in this case. My biggest concern is that my neighbours may be raising kids who think it's OK to behave like that - that is scary!

Those kids looked like they had been stabbing away at that wheelie bin for some time before I got there and were still at it when I looked back as I turned the corner. Every impact on the bin sounded like the thump of a bass drum and the kids themselves were shouting and screaming. What I haven't mentioned is that I wasn't the only person to witness this. Local residents were pottering about in their gardens or fiddling with their cars within sight of them and the street itself leads to a busy shop so I wasn't the only pedestrian around. It would be interesting to know if anyone else reported it? In any event, it's not a clear cut issue: one of my neighbours felt compelled to sell her house last year due to harassment when she called the police to complain about kids playing football on a nearby grass verge and they identified her as the complainant.

Sunday afternoon is even better. Thanks to CC and her amazing prowess at thinking outside the box!

I've decided against reporting anything. I?d probably be charged with wasting police time.

georgia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Do we go back to Fridays for August > or stick with Saturdays??? I don't know how much organisational effort is required to arrange a drinks date - only that it all seems to fall upon your kind self. If the burden is not too great, one solution may be to revert to Fridays for the traditional Evening drinks whereupon Afternoon summer drinks would fall on the next day albeit at a different venue. That would retain the benefits of both occasions without the problems encountered so far.