dbboy

Lewis Schaffer is now tweeting posts from here on his twitter page, what a creep.

WARNING I suggest anyone who has any indirect contact with Lewis Schaffer is extremely careful. The creep has started trolling me, as he has with others who object to the views of the protest group he is involved with. I thought trolling was illegal in the UK? Does anyone know what the consequences are for being a troll if you are not a UK citizen but residing in the UK?

I am not making accusations (I do not know how you think I am), but am rather stating things that happened. I do not wish to argue with you about this, and think it's probably better that I cease contributing to this thread.

dbboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Selective answering - an interesting approach, > when the arguments the protesters put forward are > exposed their is little to be able to defend. It was ME who brought up the issue of selective answering, Not Sue, and HopOne it was not aimed at you. I raised it as the protest groups current spokesperson who posted an update the other day continues to be selective about answering questions I have raised with her posts. And from what I can see they have huge gaps and voids in their argument. They continue to spin the facts to suit themselves, even though others have explained to them were what they are saying is incorrect They don't listen to reason and it seems nigh on impossible to have a coherent discussion with them. As I think JoeLeg might have said, Panada Boy did a far better job at creating a constructive discussion on here. This won't be popular as the sooner Southwark complete the clearance work the better, then this thread can die a dignified death and Southwark won't have to start digging up more of the rec for burial space.

Selective answering - an interesting approach, when the arguments the protesters put forward are exposed their is little to be able to defend.

Sill waiting for the answers, perhaps the questions expose too much eh???? Ignoring them won't make them go away, but rather demonstrate the large holes and voids in your entire argument to make the cemeteries into overgrown closed spaces because you don't want any more burials locally. Have you asked people if they want green burials, woodland burials, burials in pods that grow trees or a traditional burial with a headstone? And the research said, I don't know and neither does your protest group?

"SSW is not anti-burial, as some have suggested, in fact quite the contrary. We support the right of ALL residents to a fair and equal Council burial service." NO, NO, NO, not what your protest group said originally, so has your position changed??? "We have tried to discuss this many times with Councillors, as it breaks both Human Rights Law and Southwark's own Local Authority Equality Duty under the Equality Act 2010" What in heaven has this got to do with COC? "So, a solution, a genuine compromise exists that makes sense for ALL residents, for those who want to be buried and for those who love trees and nature and want to keep the wild places and the history and for families who want to preserve their relatives graves. So what is your solution? "Kemnal Park Cemetery is 6 miles down the road" - Down the road, really, Peckham is down the road, Kemnal Park Cemetery is more than "down the road" and a four hour round trip for residents by public transport. LBS do not have the funds to run a bus service. How do you come up with a figure of ?5M? "Continuing with the current burial project will only embed racism and religious discrimination deeper in Southwark Council." Now that says it all about the protest group that you lead when you write such total garbage. Why bring racism and religious discrimination into the discussion primarily about COC? At least the protest group has nailed its colours to the mast and it don't look like a pretty sight. How do you envisage that it will "embed racism and religious discrimination into LBS, Have you asked the Orthodox Muslims if they are happy with the current arrangements? Can you also answer the points I made earlier that you have so far failed to respond to. Can you explain what you mean by "and became a formal party in the Church proceedings". Are you actually saying that the protest group is working in partnership with the Diocese, because I can't see what else you are saying unless I have missed something. Have the protesters or Church taken out an injunction against Southwark? Are the Church then only interested in the matter of the consecrated ground? If that is the case, my understanding of what Penguin68 said in his initial post here, was that the ground clearance does not effect the consecrated ground. And if you have photographic evidence of memorials being damaged as was stated earlier by precious star can you post these, as any damage to memorials is wrong.

Blanche - Can you explain what you mean by "and became a formal party in the Church proceedings". Are you actually saying that the protest group is working in partnership with the Diocese, because I can't see what else you are saying unless I have missed something. Blanche - Have the protesters or Church taken out an injunction against Southwark? Are the Church then only interested in the matter of the consecrated ground? If that is the case, my understanding of what Penguin68 said in his initial post here, was that the ground clearance does not effect the consecrated ground. And if you have photographic evidence of memorials being damaged as was stated earlier by precious star can you post these, as any damage to memorials is wrong.

njxen, yep agree with that.

Have the protesters or Church taken out an injunction against Southwark? Are the Church then only interested in the matter of the consecrated ground? If that is the case, my understanding of what Penguin68 said in his initial post here, was that the ground clearance does not effect the consecrated ground.

Nope, cleared for its intended purpose - burials.

This is what penguin68 said in the initial post of this thread "Some of the land is ?consecrated? (particularly public grave areas) ? the Diocese of Southwark must give a ?Faculty? for consecrated areas to allow what is described as ?substantial alterations? ? which includes the removal of any remains for re-interment in consecrated ground (which is their current policy regarding public graves), the disturbance of grave furniture and the creation of new paths or roadways. Some actions (in practical terms ?gardening? and tree management) do not require such a Faculty, nor would clearance of contamination and fly-tipping residue where this did not disturb graves or grave markers." Blanche - Can you explain what you mean by "and became a formal party in the Church proceedings". Are you actually saying that the protest group is working in partnership with the Diocese, because I can't see what else you are saying unless I have missed something.

I don't hate nature, but realise it needs to be controlled otherwise it takes over as has happened through the overgrown section of COC, which the Council are now rectifying and bringing back into use. Someone mentioned earlier a fox looking for its home, how do you know this, no one knows unless you can speak fox, and only Dulwich Fox does that!!!!!!!!!

Joeleg - totally agree, Pandaboy entered into a meaningful, worthwhile and useful discussion, and whilst I disagree with Pandaboy's point of view, he raised solid arguments and was willing to read through detailed documents to substantiate what he was saying without ever using any emotive language.

precious star Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I dont need to post any photos of my evidence, i > have seen enough of the damage they have caused > already by the many pictures and youtube links > that already have been posted on here. Have you > not seen these!! If you want to see evidence for > yourself, you only have to take a slow walk and > inspect the old stonework and you too will see > that its new damage! If you say the current work undertaken by Council has been negligent and resulted in memorials being damaged/broken then please post pictures to support what you say. I have looked through this and the lounged thread and NO current pictures or video evidence has been posted.

Cemeteries remain the place for the burial of our dead and they become a very important place for those left behind to mourn their loved ones. Only when you have experienced a close loss will or can you ever recognise the importance of having a grave to visit as their final resting place.

Penguin68 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > A lot of local residents DO care and want to have > a say in how the cemeteries are managed for trees > and wildlife. > > Well, I'm a local (Southwark) resident, and I also > care how the cemeteries are manged for the > recently deceased and their mourners. As that is a > need which is being ignored by too many here. > There are many parks and wild areas very close by, > there are only 2 working cemeteries. When the > trees and beetles get a vote (and start paying > council tax) I'll put their needs on a par with > people. (And yes, I do know that people also > appreciate wild life and trees, my point is that > the cemeteries are not the only place, very > locally, they can do that, whereas they are the > only places, very locally, where people can be > buried and mourned). Penguin58, an excellent post and well made.

Yes "Untidy" scrub beats that hands down in this respect." biodiversity?? we are surrounded with green space, scrub is overgrowth that should be cut back just as the Council are rectifying yeas of their neglect. I do not really want to be walking over peoples graves to enjoy greenery, give me parks, playing fields, One Tree Hill or The Great North Wood. But then protesters love scrub.

People may not like it but change is inevitable and actual is for the better. Previous posts have moaned about "sterile car park like cemeteries" they may look sterile when new but give it 30+ years and row upon row of lawned graves look neat and tidy. It also means that maintaining the lawns are much easier for the cemetery staff and you don't get or encourage any part to become overgrown scrub, unusable and eventually access being denied. If you really want to see what unkept, untidy and overgrown looks like in late summer, go and have a look at the old parts of Ladywell or Hither Green Cemeteries when they look an absolute disgrace, embarrassment, and disrespectful to those whose graves they are.

precious star Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I agree that the way the council are treating the > cemetery is like its just a playground, they show > no respect, and i have seen on many occasions how > the tractors have left there tractor marks across > graves and also noticed that since they have been > doing works lovely old stones of angels have had > heads and wings knocked off! Do you have any pictures to substantiate this, if so perhaps you can post them?? Is this deliberate as > they can then say that for saftey reasons now they > will need to be destroyed! This is british history > of londoners . I doubt it would have been done deliberately. Are you referring to the so called, "Angle of Southwark"???? Are we wrong to want a bit of london > history. No, nothing wrong with history Do we want neat rows of grave stones, all > gleaming white, with neatly mowed lawns. Actually yes, as that is how cemeteries are now laid out, go and have a look at the area by the railway tracks in Hither Green. 30+ years on and it looks fine IMO. With no > peaceful hidden places to sit and reflect on life > and hear just the peacefulness of birds. There are places you can sit in the cemetery. > I love the way in times gone by how people 'wanted > to go out in style', (horse and cart.) And they still do. Do we lose > all these old values, and traditions and with it > our britishness. No we don't, but we do need to accept change and move with the times. ] We dont have to be ashamed of > 'old things', they are charming and add to our own > charm and quanintness of london! You will all miss > these things of london when they are gone. > Although im young in my years , i love history and > nature and feel very stongly about these things. We are not ashamed and there is nothing wrong with old things but some see change as progression and a good thing, while others appear to want things to be overgrown and inaccessible.

taper Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Warwick Gardens in Peckham is an old slum/bomb > damage clearance area, made into a small > recreation ground in the 60s I think. Since then, > because of the mature gardens on one side and the > railway on the other, it has become an unlikely > haven for wildlife, particularly insects > (including stag beetles). > > Because of the work of this woman, catalogueing > the insect life of the park (here - > http://insectinside.me/category/warwick-gardens-se > 15/page/3/), we have come to appreciate that this > unlikely setting is hugely important for local > wildlife. In fact one insect found here had never > before been seen in the UK and the Natural History > museum came down to verify the find. Locals with > LB Southwark have sought to enhance the space by > planting a wild hedge along the railway side and > allowing the grass to grow wild on the garden side > over the next few years. > > I have no idea whether COC is similar in its > importance to local wildlife, but my guess is it > may well be. Has there been any sort of detailed > assessment? I'm afraid i find the argument that > "other green/wooded areas are available" to be > rather shallow and shortsighted. Modern > graveyards look bloody awful and COC is an old > graveyard that should be in process of winding > down as a working graveyard and turned into a mini > Nunhead cemetery for future generations. You may not like the way cemeteries are now laided out, but this is how councils now structure cemeteries, if you go as an example to the far end of Hither Green Cemetery by the railway tracks, where this process was started 30+ years ago, you'll see this is how it is done. They actually look much neater and make maintenance by the cemetery staff far easier, so preventing the opportunity of scrub growth. The recent internments along Woodvale are all still very "new", but in several years time, it will have settled down and will look much nicer. Likewise the interments in the last couple of years in CNC. You need to give it time and I hate to say, "allow nature" to take its course as the clay settles and in about 18 months after the internment is covered with top soil. Then turf is laid on the soil and it will start growing, forming a large lawned area with the memorials of each grave. Nature will always prevail, but man is in controls of nature through maintenance in and around the cemetery.

It is overgrown, hence the term scrubland

Next you'll be telling us we can't cut down trees, hedges or bushes in our own gardens, really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Appreciate the concerns about flooding and you are very right to be concerned about such an important this issue. Southwark should have plans in place to deal with flooding. All boroughs have an Emergency Planning Officer and flooding sits within their remit. It is a common problem for cemeteries to suffer from flooding and it is not only COC where this happens. Take a look at some other cemeteries and you'll see the same problem. Water has always run off from COC onto Forest Hill Road, however I think it has worsened over recent years, it seems like it is rain water running off onto Forest Hill Road. You would need to ask Thames water to confirm if it is only rain water.

Does the combined size of the two cemeteries really matter, the discussion is/should focus about what the council are doing vs what the pressure group object to/want.