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https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03104790 Edited to say this is a new trial about to start. Its still very early days with this vaccine and As this is a vaccine that will be given each ysar it is impossible to say at this stage what the outcome of shedding is. Saffron do you know if any clinical trials have been done for this years vaccine strains.

Jrj as a healthcare worker I am sure you must be aware of the information given to parents whose children have been vaccinated as there is a risk through shedding.Is this a risk that is acknowledge In your workplace. Below is the link 4,4. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/29112

As I said at the beginning of this thread along with others I do not want to get into a debate but here I am. I have written enough over the years on this forum, and unlike you DL I would rather understand myself than try to work out someone elses thought process, it is nothing to do with religion to see connected, I feel isolating a certain part ( thought process) feels very restricting for me) sorry but I feel it's time to agree to differ, as another poster suggested earlier.

It's for people to make there own mind up, as I posted earlier its best to have a good look, it is very difficult for those who work in science to stand against the syatem. I did just google these names, I did not click on to any on the link, although I recognised some of the names, I would rather look at people individualy, hear what there saying, then check independently from them, as i am rather suspicious of both sides. I could not put them all together and make an assumption on them as a group. Please understand I am past seeing this as right or wrong in conversation. Edited to say I do not understand your link,

http://www.truthlibrary.info/articles/vaccines/list-of-doctors-and-scientists-who-oppose-and-have-testified-that-vaccines-are-not-safe/

Bluewater, it takes me a long time to type, my post above was not in response to yours. I think there is a responsibility whether vaccinated or not to be aware of vulnerable people. There is advice given out by health workers administering vaccines, due to shedding of the vaccine. I think most people would keep there children at home if they were ill and would avoid anyone who is vulnerable. Fluenz tetra should protect from 4 strains, although not very effectively, making it a vaccine that if you believed in herd immunity, scientifically this vaccine would not achieve that even if everyone but the vulnerable, who can't have it, was vaccinated.There are many strains of influenza. It worries me different strains are being put together which are being shed. I do not blame parents who vaccinate but below is maybe something to consider, although a bit scientific. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift Antigenic shift/drift

Thanks saffron I absolutely agree that people should be looked at individually on each side. There is a long list of Doctors and scientists who speak against vaccines and many health workers who refuse themselves, although this is not so easy now in some trusts. I agree conflict of interest is also something that comes up again and again, on both sides. I do believe it is harder for people working in the industry to speak up, as is seen in the time it takes to act when someone whistleblows. We have seen top consecutives in CDC accused with involvement of cover ups, moving into management of pharmaceutical companies. I understand and sympathise with new parents who are struggling to decide what is best for there children. Each argument, when it becomes personal with parents eg your child can threaten my child, can be seen from both sides, although I have concerns for the same people, who are susceptible to picking up disease. I am aware there is a warning to not have contact with certain vulnerable people but the reality of putting that into practice, especially in London. We have the same concerns I have made a choice, my children have and will make a choice where its very possible theres will differ from mine. It is easy to make assumptions about people who see things you cannot understand, keeping things personal when speaking about a very large and complicated system is difficult for me because although it is personal, outside of that the borders become more intermingled the more information you learn. Its good to learn from one another but not from a stance of guilty or innocent.

https://youtu.be/K5BF0x354BI This is quite an interesting scientific view,

What is meaningless to you does not make you right. Nor make it any less meaningful to me. I do not mean to be rude but I do not have any desire to even want to try to get you to understand where I am coming from. I feel all these predictable arguments do not help people. I think we have very much let go of being in touch with what we feel or our intuition, as we are informed what is right and wrong. This has encouraged people to think in a very judgemental way, especially where others feelings of complexity feels simple for them. If it is a decision for you that does not involve your beliefs, fine, we all think differently. Where the intention to understand is genuine, people feel that. Where it js to prove you are right, sorry cant be bothered.

Segregation divide is becoming rife in our society, the need to be right is attached to that in my view. I have no inclination to put my views across on here anymore, as its beginning to feel like groundhog day.

DulwichLondoner seeing things in a duality perspective,right or wrong for me is a very restricted view which does not leave room for understanding in between. On some subjects that are more simple mostly practical it would be easier to hold this view. Sorry I did not make myself clear in above post (bit late or early) whatever way you look at it. It felt refreshing to hear yhe parents on this thread that can see beyond the right or wrong outside of there personal choice.

Dulwich Londoner, I understand where your belief to do the right thing comes from, how do I know what I know, because science has told you so. I do not believe any conversation can arise from this stance. How do you know what you know? I believe experts often battle over different opinions creating confusion which breeds a right or wrong attitude. How many people read in depth scientific reports and understand them, my experience hearing from family and friends who have made a different decision from me, is they felt it was such a huge subject its overwhelmed them and decided to go with having there children vaccinated as the worst side effects seemed rare and they were frightened. Belief in making this choice for me cannot rule out a different sense of belief a balance of information you take from outside yourself and the feeling when you know something feels right or wrong personally for you. I have said this before and it did not go down well on this forum. You can look at the bigger picture and it can be simple or as complicated as you see it but for me it is impossible to not feel what I believe.

Hammerman, I can understand why you find the nasal sprat less invasive, the problem for me is not the method it's the ingredients. It may have been made more child friendly for children but it is still a live vaccine. I feel this whole topic is more complicated for many of us because it is linked with a system that is corrupt, uncaring have broken many laws that would bring upon prison sentences for the likes of you or me. I have not vaccinated and my children (all grown up now) are also well. My grandchild has not been vaccinated either and she is flourishing. My worry, which I have repeated over the years on this forum, is the choice will be taken away and it becomes mandatory to vaccinate.

I think it's easy to forget, when this has been something you have looked at and continued to look at for many years, that many people are looking at this for the first time as parents. Unfortunately I have found it impossible on this forum to reach a level of communication where there is respect for different decisions and views, which has led in the past to a right or wrong scenario. Making it impossible to discuss the complexity of everything attached to reaching a decision. We can only do what we feel is right for our children.

Yes nixlo I am aware she is a homeopath doc, it was more the info she had put up I was linking to. As you can tell I also don't want to get into a debate on here. People need to look at the information and make there own mind up.

http://www.drcarolynfrost.co.uk/what-every-parent-should-know-before-giving-consent-for-the-flu-nasal-spray-vaccine/

Blah blah have you rsad the medical reports. Is it any specific scientific reports lead you to believe He can feel no bond between his parents, yet you believe he can be distressed.

Thanks Loz There has been a breakdown with parents and Gosh and there has probably not been a day for a long time when the parents have not felt the fight. Gosh did say when the parents withdrew there fight for Treatment that the ventilator would not immediately be turned off and hoped to give the family some time. Maybe once out of hospital the parents will find peace with there baby and let him go.

Loz do you have a link please.

Dulwichfox he may not have any concept of surroundings but I believe the bond with his parents is there, if he does not make the journey, then it must be remembered that the reality is death whatever. We do not know once the ventilator is turned off how long Charlie will last. There is an assumption it will be immediately. The things is they cannot say 100% that is how it will be. In a situation like this there needs to be understanding and people who you have good communication with, who respect the family enough to stay in the background unless needed. I have found it is suffice to have a nurse who can administer anything that's needed. This all needs to be discussed beforehand. The time for spscialist has passed.

Loz the story is not on your link but on my link, it is there it states just under the heading the parents have agreed.

Hey loz your right, how weird, it def was not what is coming up now on link, i clicked onto it after I posted it, whether it was reported wrongly, no surprise there. srisky If they can move him to a hospice, which has been offered, and from what i read earlier this seemed likely, although It is no longer on link. I can't see how it would be any different.

Why not, they were prepared to pay for the care needed.I cannot understand how people would not think the parents are aware.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/833210/Charlie-Gard-latest-news-will-baby-go-home-to-die-High-Court-case The parents have agreed for Charlie to die in a hospice. Parents feel hospial have put obstacle After obstacle in there way.

They wish to spend time with there son in an environment that is free from animosity, why can that not be in the childs best interest. Its not as if Charlie will be having any different treatment than he is having. People have been moved from other countries to die at home, this is not an unreasonable request in fact I believe it will be In Charlies interest.