Voting to remain

[Loz]

Seabag Wrote:

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> And someone remind me of the anticipated

> percentage that will actually mark their ballot

>

> 35% (that's my wild guesstimate) or about that?

Probably. Scary, isn't it? This will have have far more effect on the UK than most general elections and yet people just won't bother.

[Loz]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> My original point Loz is that it is parties that change to win the centre ground vote, not voters

> per se. That's where I disagree with you. And what has happened since 2008 is very different to what

> went before, because of the collapse of the neoliberal dream and the rise of extremems

> following the crash.

Really? No one ever accused Maggie of being centrist. Or Bevan.

So, yes, if you ignore all the history that doesn't match your argument, then history definitely proves you right.

[Blah Blah]

It's not about being centrist though, it's about encompassing the centre ground in policy as well as the right or left. Maggie was a step to the right of course, but she also appealed to the centre ground. Blair too could only keep Labour elected by appealing to the centre ground. A party that stands solely on the left or right whilst ignoring the centre, struggles to get elected. There's plenty of electoral evidence for that.

[Loz]

Or, in other words, people's voting and party manifestos will always change to ensure that the government changes regularly. We won't be subject to perpetual Tory rule if Scotland depart unless something very weird happens and every other party suddenly decides to become extremist.

[DulwichFox]

Cameron has said that if we stay.. Migrant will have to work here for 4 years before they can receive full Benefits..

Why hasn't his government already imposed that clause.. ??

Brussels would not allow it ??

DulwichFox

[Loz]

Foxy,

Because it was part of the renegotiations package he did last year as part of the referendum run-up.

[Blah Blah]

Loz Wrote:

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> Or, in other words, people's voting and party

> manifestos will always change to ensure that the

> government changes regularly. We won't be subject

> to perpetual Tory rule if Scotland depart unless

> something very weird happens and every other party

> suddenly decides to become extremist.

No, every party would have to become the same to have any chance of winning a majority. The only time Labour have ever won a majority of seats in England and Wales was at the height of Blair, and there a reason for that - the same reason I have being trying to get through to you, which you are clearly not understanding. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Seabag]

2/10 people in the population (or close to that) will have voted for what happens to the country

Nice thought that

[Alan Medic]

Where did you get that figure from Seabag? Are you suggesting babbies should be allowed vote?

[malumbu]

UKIP has some nice policies - so they can cover all the bases. They will never get in so it is irrelevant but it makes the seem nicer.

Not sure I ever saw the nice side of Thatch. Actually I am sure that I never saw a nice side.

[root]

malumbu Wrote:

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> UKIP has some nice policies - so they can cover

> all the bases. They will never get in so it is

> irrelevant but it makes the seem nicer.

such as their environmental pillage policies?

[Seabag]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> Where did you get that figure from Seabag? Are you

> suggesting babbies should be allowed vote?

I made it up

Much like the rest of the figures bandied about

[TheArtfulDogger]

Seabag, do you work for either side in the debate because as you point out, your figures are as accurate as the made up figures used by both sides...

Either way, according to the opposition group, "we're all doomed" 🤔

[Louisa]

Just seen the debate on Sarah Derbyshire. What a joke, emotive rubbish from both sides with no clear and concise argument for the undecided. The polls haven't shifted, more polarised than ever.

Louisa.

[malumbu]

Speaking in the abstract here. I was tempted to say that Hitler was misunderstood! Never even looked at their manifestation; just aware that even the most nastiest of political parties think that they are the party of the people.

So much of what has been raised in the debate has nowt to do with the EU and is dependent on domestic politics. The main reason the last lot delivered anything on the environment was due to the Lib Dems, now they have gone.....

root Wrote:

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> malumbu Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > UKIP has some nice policies - so they can cover

> > all the bases. They will never get in so it is

> > irrelevant but it makes the seem nicer.

>

> such as their environmental pillage policies?

[Earl Aelfheah]

The idea that we can quit the EU and then negotiate our way back in to the single market, on better terms, is pure fantasy. I thought this article in the Washington post summed things up pretty nicely https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/31/the-simple-and-shocking-truth-that-explains-the-rise-of-far-right-politicians-everywhere/

[uncleglen]

I remember the photos about parts of Spain being covered in poly tunnels...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/21/spain.gilestremlett

We are the third largest customer apparently (and that was in 2005), I think they need us more than we need them....so I'm voting to leave...

[Earl Aelfheah]

So you think we'll leave the single market only to negotiate re-entry on better terms. Really?

[Loz]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> We are the third largest customer apparently (and

> that was in 2005), I think they need us more than

> we need them....so I'm voting to leave...

44% of UK's exports go to the EU. 8% of the EU's exports go to the UK.

I think you've grossly misunderstood who needs who more.

[Otta]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> I think they need us more than

> we need them....so I'm voting to leave...

Yeah I'm sure that's why you've decided to vote leave.

[????]

Loz Wrote:

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> uncleglen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We are the third largest customer apparently

> (and

> > that was in 2005), I think they need us more

> than

> > we need them....so I'm voting to leave...

>

> 44% of UK's exports go to the EU. 8% of the EU's

> exports go to the UK.

>

> I think you've grossly misunderstood who needs who

> more.

Yup - but that's apples and oranges;we are Germany and France's 3rd biggest export market (and Ireland's first)and apparently a larger share of our Exports went to the EU before we joined! This "little old Britain couldn't possibly exist by itself" stuff doesn't convince me that much and the moral high ground rubbish seeping all over Social Media is reminding me of the smuggy Corbyn/Labourites WE ARE MORALLY RIGHT enough that I'm tempted to vote out. Saw some crap in The Guardian by Eddie Izzard today trying to tie up D-day with a moral duty to vote YES...I wonder how many actual D-Day veterans still alive believe that?A small minority is my feeling. Remember all the scare stories about missing out on the Euro being similar and the rise of right wing nationalism and anti-EU parties hardly feels me with confidence about the future of the EU without us...I think others would follow

[Blah Blah]

But it's exactly because of those fractious turns to the extremes that we need to keep the EU together - or would you rather everyone went their own way and we see real upheaval in Europe again because of the economic decline many countries would incur? The EU is not just about the bigger players, it's also about the opportunity and stability is gives to smaller economies. I believe the idea of a EU is still a good one, and think working towards reform is the right way to go.

And I also really wish voters had an inbetween option on this too, i.e. of being part of the marketplace, but not full members. A lot of people for in want reform, and a lot of people for out, are focused on too narrow a definition of EU membership.

[Loz]

Well, my vote went in the post today.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Loz Wrote:

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> uncleglen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We are the third largest customer apparently

> (and

> > that was in 2005), I think they need us more

> than

> > we need them....so I'm voting to leave...

>

> 44% of UK's exports go to the EU. 8% of the EU's

> exports go to the UK.

>

> I think you've grossly misunderstood who needs who

> more.

Percentage often hides the real numbers

What is the actual amount in pounds shillings and pence

8% of a billion, for example us a lot more than 44% of ten thousand, therefore don't quote percentages but real monetary terms ..

There are lies, damn lies and statistics 🤐

[Loz]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Percentage often hides the real numbers

>

> What is the actual amount in pounds shillings and

> pence

>

> 8% of a billion, for example us a lot more than 44% of ten thousand, therefore don't quote

> percentages but real monetary terms ..

>

> There are lies, damn lies and statistics

Quite often I'd agree, but in this case the percentages are the more pertinent as they show the effect on each economy.

Put it this way, if trade between the UK and the EU stopped tomorrow, which economy would be far, far more effected?