Trains cancellations - latest

[BrandNewGuy]

granadaland Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Went to the station this morning out of necessity

> after avoiding it last week. Got on an 08.02 train

> to London Bridge. No busier than before the

> revised timetable.

Really? That's on the revised timetable as terminating at South Bermondsey. On the National Rail site as taking 38 mins to London Bridge with two changes.

[LondonMix]

Because instead of 10 minutes it would take over an hour. Also, walking (and biking) cannot replace a functioning public transport system in a city like London.

niall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you're just going to London bridge and live

> around E.D I don't know why more people don't just

> walk, if you are able of course.

>

> I walk to and from work every day after getting

> fed up with buses and trains.

>

> It doesn't take very long at all.

>

> Lovely weather for it too.

[XIX]

0730 delayed en route today. Only 7 minutes late in the end, but that's not the point - this timetable change was meant to ensure reliability and timeliness. AND it was short formation - only 4 carriages. FFS. Its just a joke.

[antantant]

I somehow managed to squeeze on at Queens Road Peckham, but certainly didn't make any friends.

The trains are actually making life misery at the moment. When I moved to the area 5 years ago I had 8 trains per hour to London bridge. Now I have 1, delayed and four car.

XIX Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 0730 delayed en route today. Only 7 minutes late

> in the end, but that's not the point - this

> timetable change was meant to ensure reliability

> and timeliness. AND it was short formation - only

> 4 carriages. FFS. Its just a joke.

[KidKruger]

Agree with XIX and Antant - yeah I was on that train fecking carnage and a 1/2 length train was out of order.

It's sad to be wondering how I can seriously continue working in the City with transport like this, worse than over a decade ago.

What's the point ?!

[Green Goose]

Will the Luddites never learn?

Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic controllers (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie. He was able to get replacements from the military and elsewhere and all was running smoothly within a week! The original ATC's were never employed at control centers ever again. Real Luddites.

Train drivers and conductors are infinitately more dispensible than ATCs.

Problem solved.

GG

[KidKruger]

Cool. Problem solved already.

Is that before or after the two decking cancelled trains this eve that meant I have to travel instead via Foreat Hole ?!

[XIX]

I had another wonderful experience getting home tonight. The 2110 was delayed by 15 minutes and a decision was then made to cut out the first six or so stations. When I politely asked a customer services person why it was late and why they felt it was right to just miss out the stations she was very rude and dismissive, clearly couldn't care less. I explained that most people on the train weren't aware it was not calling at most stations (I was only aware by checking on the national rail app whilst sitting on the train waiting) - she replied that an announcement had been made - but when I replied that was on the concourse and no announcement had been made to those already on the train she literally just shrugged, turned away and refused to engage with me. Unbelievable attitude. I then spoke with the train driver himself - he got on the phone to someone - station manager, control room or something and said 'why am I being told to miss out these stations? I'm not going to do it. I'm going to stop at them'. The train then ran (albeit 16 minutes late) and called at all stops.

First of all, to the driver of the train (in the extremely unlikely event he reads this) - sir, I salute you. Thank you. What you did was awesome and restored my faith that for every idiot out there, theres a gem too.

But the thing that bothered me was a that the decision was made in the first place - was it really necessary to cut the stops? How many times in the past may this have happened totally unecessarily? That a decision is made by someone and no-one challenges it. The ease with which the driver just decided he wasn't going to do what he was told. The whole thing showed how easy it is for management to make decisions lightly about cancelling trains or cutting stops. We can never know if it was really necessary and they know it - they can almost act with impunity. It was only the decency of the driver in this case that could call them out on it. The utter malaise of the initial person I spoke to bothers me. If there were a few more people were like the driver maybe things wouldnt be quite as bad as they are.

[JoeLeg]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Will the Luddites never learn?

>

> Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic controllers

> (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie. He was

> able to get replacements from the military and

> elsewhere and all was running smoothly within a

> week! The original ATC's were never employed at

> control centers ever again. Real Luddites.

>

> Train drivers and conductors are infinitately more

> dispensible than ATCs.

>

> Problem solved.

>

> GG

So you suggest that Southern Rail requisition military personnel (and others) to replace train drivers and conductors?

Well, for starters Reagan was commander-in-chief and could do what he damn well pleased. Southern Rail don't appear able to get trains to run.

Also, Southern don't have any right to requestition military personnel (can't believe you even need this pointed out to you), only the government can, and the military is somewhat...overstretched right now.

Of course the government can, if the government wants to take it over. But that's tantamount to admitting that privatisation has failed so I doubt that's happening.

Any more bright ideas?

[KidKruger]

Ha ha XIX I was on that train too. About to depart then everyone started getting off the train - first stop Streatham.

Ended up having to go FH. Shite lately.

[Green Goose]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Green Goose Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Will the Luddites never learn?

> >

> > Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic

> controllers

> > (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie. He

> was

> > able to get replacements from the military and

> > elsewhere and all was running smoothly within a

> > week! The original ATC's were never employed at

> > control centers ever again. Real Luddites.

> >

> > Train drivers and conductors are infinitately

> more

> > dispensible than ATCs.

> >

> > Problem solved.

> >

> > GG

>

> So you suggest that Southern Rail requisition

> military personnel (and others) to replace train

> drivers and conductors?

>

> Well, for starters Reagan was commander-in-chief

> and could do what he damn well pleased. Southern

> Rail don't appear able to get trains to run.

> Also, Southern don't have any right to

> requestition military personnel (can't believe you

> even need this pointed out to you), only the

> government can, and the military is

> somewhat...overstretched right now.

>

> Of course the government can, if the government

> wants to take it over. But that's tantamount to

> admitting that privatisation has failed so I doubt

> that's happening.

>

> Any more bright ideas?

C'mon JoeLeg, I said Regan got ATC's "from military and elsewhere" IRPT "elsewhere". Also I didnt say Southern should/could use military. Driving a train is a far far stretch from being an ATC.

There are heaps of people who could drive a train with very little training. For example heavt truck drivers could do it in a matter of hours. Driving an HGV is much more demanding than driving a train where everything is covered by safety measures. Apart from opening the doors all the driver does is hold the "dead nman's" handle.

All the signals are interlocked and the train cannot pass a red unless the driver overrides it.

Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer betwen terminals , you will get on a driverless train. There are countless other mass transit system around the world that are automated. It's not rocket science.

The organ grinder's assistant could even do it.

GG

[Lowlander]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Green Goose Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Will the Luddites never learn?

> > >

> > > Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic

> > controllers

> > > (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie. He

> > was

> > > able to get replacements from the military

> and

> > > elsewhere and all was running smoothly within

> a

> > > week! The original ATC's were never employed

> at

> > > control centers ever again. Real Luddites.

> > >

> > > Train drivers and conductors are infinitately

> > more

> > > dispensible than ATCs.

> > >

> > > Problem solved.

> > >

> > > GG

> >

> > So you suggest that Southern Rail requisition

> > military personnel (and others) to replace

> train

> > drivers and conductors?

> >

> > Well, for starters Reagan was

> commander-in-chief

> > and could do what he damn well pleased.

> Southern

> > Rail don't appear able to get trains to run.

> > Also, Southern don't have any right to

> > requestition military personnel (can't believe

> you

> > even need this pointed out to you), only the

> > government can, and the military is

> > somewhat...overstretched right now.

> >

> > Of course the government can, if the government

> > wants to take it over. But that's tantamount to

> > admitting that privatisation has failed so I

> doubt

> > that's happening.

> >

> > Any more bright ideas?

>

> C'mon JoeLeg, I said Regan got ATC's "from

> military and elsewhere" IRPT "elsewhere". Also I

> didnt say Southern should/could use military.

> Driving a train is a far far stretch from being an

> ATC.

>

> There are heaps of people who could drive a train

> with very little training. For example heavt truck

> drivers could do it in a matter of hours. Driving

> an HGV is much more demanding than driving a train

> where everything is covered by safety measures.

> Apart from opening the doors all the driver does

> is hold the "dead nman's" handle.

> All the signals are interlocked and the train

> cannot pass a red unless the driver overrides it.

>

> Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer betwen

> terminals , you will get on a driverless train.

> There are countless other mass transit system

> around the world that are automated. It's not

> rocket science.

>

> The organ grinder's assistant could even do it.

> GG

It's relatively easy (for engineers) to automate mass transit, it runs at a maximum 40mph or so, there's only one line in each direction and a few minutes between each stop. That's why the Central, Victoria and DLR lines are automated (and maybe more).

When you get to automating mainline trains, the complexity of junctions, higher speeds (Brighton mainline is 100mph in places), and heavier trains with more intense weather conditions, means that the cost is currently prohibitive.

It takes 9 -12 months to a year to train (excuse the pun) a train driver.

Driving a 480 tonne train with 1000 humans on board at close to 100mph is not the same as driving a 40 tonne HGV limited to 50mph.

[Zebedee Tring]

Is the Central Line automated? There's certainly more than one line in each direction - there's the Hainault loop and branches to Epping, Ealing and West Ruislip. The Jubilee Line has only one line in each direction but the DLR is far more complicated.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The train companies haven't hired enough staff to run things as they stand. They certainly aren't going to fork out for the new technology required to go driverless. Fundamentally, we need to reintegrate a fragmented system, invest in it properly and run it as a public service.

[Lowlander]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is the Central Line automated? There's certainly

> more than one line in each direction - there's the

> Hainault loop and branches to Epping, Ealing and

> West Ruislip. The Jubilee Line has only one line

> in each direction but the DLR is far more

> complicated.

Yes the Central line is automated, and the DLR whilst more complicated is still relatively slow with a maximum speed of 50mph, and the network is tiny compared to Southern's.

It's not impossible to automate the mainlines, but some parts still have Victorian signalling. The cost and time to do it is so prohibitive that it's not going to happen for another 25-30 years at the earliest, and even then it will be tentatively rolled out on single track lines.

Even Japan and Europe have no plans to automate mainlines.

[Penguin68]

It is also worth pointing out that (in the context of driver operated doors) main line trains (unlike the tubes) do not have an automatic door opening system if the closing door is blocked - e.g by a body of someone not fully in the train - which has led to dragging when a driver failed to notice this and set-off. The guard is meant to be more aware of this by getting out of the rain and looking. However, I only know of one such incident - and it was a trainee driver involved. But there is some (very slight) reason behind the claim that the industrial action and inaction is safety related (although, of course, it is mainly about job protection).

The Victoria line was originally designed to be completely automatic (driverless) but has never been run as such (although it still could be). Likewise, I believe, the Jubilee.

[Green Goose]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Green Goose Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JoeLeg Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Green Goose Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > Will the Luddites never learn?

> > > >

> > > > Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic

> > > controllers

> > > > (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie.

> He

> > > was

> > > > able to get replacements from the military

> > and

> > > > elsewhere and all was running smoothly

> within

> > a

> > > > week! The original ATC's were never

> employed

> > at

> > > > control centers ever again. Real Luddites.

> > > >

> > > > Train drivers and conductors are

> infinitately

> > > more

> > > > dispensible than ATCs.

> > > >

> > > > Problem solved.

> > > >

> > > > GG

> > >

> > > So you suggest that Southern Rail requisition

> > > military personnel (and others) to replace

> > train

> > > drivers and conductors?

> > >

> > > Well, for starters Reagan was

> > commander-in-chief

> > > and could do what he damn well pleased.

> > Southern

> > > Rail don't appear able to get trains to run.

> > > Also, Southern don't have any right to

> > > requestition military personnel (can't

> believe

> > you

> > > even need this pointed out to you), only the

> > > government can, and the military is

> > > somewhat...overstretched right now.

> > >

> > > Of course the government can, if the

> government

> > > wants to take it over. But that's tantamount

> to

> > > admitting that privatisation has failed so I

> > doubt

> > > that's happening.

> > >

> > > Any more bright ideas?

> >

> > C'mon JoeLeg, I said Regan got ATC's "from

> > military and elsewhere" IRPT "elsewhere". Also

> I

> > didnt say Southern should/could use military.

> > Driving a train is a far far stretch from being

> an

> > ATC.

> >

> > There are heaps of people who could drive a

> train

> > with very little training. For example heavt

> truck

> > drivers could do it in a matter of hours.

> Driving

> > an HGV is much more demanding than driving a

> train

> > where everything is covered by safety measures.

> > Apart from opening the doors all the driver

> does

> > is hold the "dead nman's" handle.

> > All the signals are interlocked and the train

> > cannot pass a red unless the driver overrides

> it.

> >

> > Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer betwen

> > terminals , you will get on a driverless train.

> > There are countless other mass transit system

> > around the world that are automated. It's not

> > rocket science.

> >

> > The organ grinder's assistant could even do it.

> > GG

>

>

> It's relatively easy (for engineers) to automate

> mass transit, it runs at a maximum 40mph or so,

> there's only one line in each direction and a few

> minutes between each stop. That's why the

> Central, Victoria and DLR lines are automated (and

> maybe more).

>

>

> When you get to automating mainline trains, the

> complexity of junctions, higher speeds (Brighton

> mainline is 100mph in places), and heavier trains

> with more intense weather conditions, means that

> the cost is currently prohibitive.

>

> It takes 9 -12 months to a year to train (excuse

> the pun) a train driver.

>

> Driving a 480 tonne train with 1000 humans on

> board at close to 100mph is not the same as

> driving a 40 tonne HGV limited to 50mph.

More than a little exageration there, Lowlander!

Your average 4 car southern train weighs 136 tons and carries about 300 passengers. The average speed is less than 30mph. Here we are not talking HS intercity express trains but simple, slow units. A typical run would be Croydon to London Bridge. Slow, simple and nothing complicated. The organ grinder's assistant could do it if he was given a banana!

Trust me, driving an HGV is MUCH more difficult. Any Truckie could learn it in a few hours.

[Lowlander]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Green Goose Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > JoeLeg Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > Green Goose Wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > Will the Luddites never learn?

> > > > >

> > > > > Ronald Regan sacked all the air trafic

> > > > controllers

> > > > > (ATC's)when they started getting Bolshie.

> > He

> > > > was

> > > > > able to get replacements from the

> military

> > > and

> > > > > elsewhere and all was running smoothly

> > within

> > > a

> > > > > week! The original ATC's were never

> > employed

> > > at

> > > > > control centers ever again. Real

> Luddites.

> > > > >

> > > > > Train drivers and conductors are

> > infinitately

> > > > more

> > > > > dispensible than ATCs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem solved.

> > > > >

> > > > > GG

> > > >

> > > > So you suggest that Southern Rail

> requisition

> > > > military personnel (and others) to replace

> > > train

> > > > drivers and conductors?

> > > >

> > > > Well, for starters Reagan was

> > > commander-in-chief

> > > > and could do what he damn well pleased.

> > > Southern

> > > > Rail don't appear able to get trains to run.

>

> > > > Also, Southern don't have any right to

> > > > requestition military personnel (can't

> > believe

> > > you

> > > > even need this pointed out to you), only

> the

> > > > government can, and the military is

> > > > somewhat...overstretched right now.

> > > >

> > > > Of course the government can, if the

> > government

> > > > wants to take it over. But that's

> tantamount

> > to

> > > > admitting that privatisation has failed so

> I

> > > doubt

> > > > that's happening.

> > > >

> > > > Any more bright ideas?

> > >

> > > C'mon JoeLeg, I said Regan got ATC's "from

> > > military and elsewhere" IRPT "elsewhere".

> Also

> > I

> > > didnt say Southern should/could use military.

> > > Driving a train is a far far stretch from

> being

> > an

> > > ATC.

> > >

> > > There are heaps of people who could drive a

> > train

> > > with very little training. For example heavt

> > truck

> > > drivers could do it in a matter of hours.

> > Driving

> > > an HGV is much more demanding than driving a

> > train

> > > where everything is covered by safety

> measures.

> > > Apart from opening the doors all the driver

> > does

> > > is hold the "dead nman's" handle.

> > > All the signals are interlocked and the train

> > > cannot pass a red unless the driver overrides

> > it.

> > >

> > > Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer

> betwen

> > > terminals , you will get on a driverless

> train.

> > > There are countless other mass transit system

> > > around the world that are automated. It's not

> > > rocket science.

> > >

> > > The organ grinder's assistant could even do

> it.

> > > GG

> >

> >

> > It's relatively easy (for engineers) to

> automate

> > mass transit, it runs at a maximum 40mph or so,

> > there's only one line in each direction and a

> few

> > minutes between each stop. That's why the

> > Central, Victoria and DLR lines are automated

> (and

> > maybe more).

> >

> >

> > When you get to automating mainline trains, the

> > complexity of junctions, higher speeds

> (Brighton

> > mainline is 100mph in places), and heavier

> trains

> > with more intense weather conditions, means

> that

> > the cost is currently prohibitive.

> >

> > It takes 9 -12 months to a year to train

> (excuse

> > the pun) a train driver.

> >

> > Driving a 480 tonne train with 1000 humans on

> > board at close to 100mph is not the same as

> > driving a 40 tonne HGV limited to 50mph.

>

> More than a little exageration there, Lowlander!

>

> Your average 4 car southern train weighs 136 tons

> and carries about 300 passengers. The average

> speed is less than 30mph. Here we are not talking

> HS intercity express trains but simple, slow

> units. A typical run would be Croydon to London

> Bridge. Slow, simple and nothing complicated. The

> organ grinder's assistant could do it if he was

> given a banana!

>

> Trust me, driving an HGV is MUCH more difficult.

> Any Truckie could learn it in a few hours.

I've driven a 40 tonne HGV (and reversed one through 180 degrees). It's surprisingly easy with practice.

Granted, I haven't driven a train.

You're right on the weight of a 4 car class 455; I had it in mind that an 8 class train was around 480 tonnes.

Line speed on the route through Peckham Rye is 65mph.

If you like we could go down to one of the preserved railways and spend a few hundred pounds driving real trains to see how easy it is?

[JoeLeg]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> C'mon JoeLeg, I said Regan got ATC's "from

> military and elsewhere" IRPT "elsewhere". Also I

> didnt say Southern should/could use military.

Then why mention it?

> Driving a train is a far far stretch from being an

> ATC.

Well of course, but if not the military then where do you suggest they find them from, and under what legislation do they sack the existing staff?

>

> There are heaps of people who could drive a train

> with very little training.

How do you know how much training is involved? Have you done it? I myself have no idea.

For example heavt truck

> drivers could do it in a matter of hours.

Again, how do you know?

Driving

> an HGV is much more demanding than driving a train

> where everything is covered by safety measures.

> Apart from opening the doors all the driver does

> is hold the "dead nman's" handle.

> All the signals are interlocked and the train

> cannot pass a red unless the driver overrides it.

Have you driven many trains? I haven't, but then I don't assume a minimally trained monkey could do the job.

>

> Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer betwen

> terminals , you will get on a driverless train.

> There are countless other mass transit system

> around the world that are automated. It's not

> rocket science.

>

That's true, so why haven't we switched to it? What is the difference between the DLR and Southern, for example?

> The organ grinder's assistant could even do it.

So why don't Southern do this?

> GG

If I seem shirty about your short-sighted suggestion, it's because I don't think it's helpful to suggest that wholesale termination of the workforce, coupled with an assumption that the job is easy, is going to solve this. I would have no problem with Southern adopting a total change of staff of it would solve the issues, but there's more to it than this, not least of which is the incompetence of Southern management. It isn't all on the drivers.

[Rolo Tomasi]

Courtesy of Popbitch

If you haven't yet played the Southern Rail game yet.

http://games.ramjam.co.uk/srt/

[Green Goose]

JoeLeg Wrote:

>

> >

> > Next time you go to Gatwick and transfer betwen

> > terminals , you will get on a driverless train.

> > There are countless other mass transit system

> > around the world that are automated. It's not

> > rocket science.

> >

>

> That's true, so why haven't we switched to it?

> What is the difference between the DLR and

> Southern, for example?

>

> > The organ grinder's assistant could even do it.

>

> So why don't Southern do this?

> > GG

>

> If I seem shirty about your short-sighted

> suggestion, it's because I don't think it's

> helpful to suggest that wholesale termination of

> the workforce, coupled with an assumption that the

> job is easy, is going to solve this. I would have

> no problem with Southern adopting a total change

> of staff of it would solve the issues, but there's

> more to it than this, not least of which is the

> incompetence of Southern management. It isn't all

> on the drivers.

Sorry but it's the Union showing Luddite behaviour.

You say it is incompetence by management. In what way? Management want to have a more efficient and cost effective service.

Just like the London Underground with drivers getting more than ?45,000 pa as a result of union blackmail. They also blackmailed TFL over late night tube running. Also tibe drivers can only be recruited from existing underground staff ie no outsiders! If that isn't restrictive practices then whatevre is?

Here again they should be offered new contracts and if they dont like it then tough. Even an adolescent monkey with one limb could drive a tube train. It is virually all automated.

Crikey, Google and others have developed driverless cars and that infinately more difficult to achieve than running a train on rails.

Let's move with the times. What would it be like today if the original Luddites held sway?

GG

A classic case where they should be offered new con

[Bic Basher]

There is no chance of heavy rail going ATO like the Victoria, Jubilee and Northern lines. Driver-only operation may work for the majority of journeys, yet there have been incidents where the driver hasn't seen what has happened.

The Class 377 units which are largely used on Southern's mainline services have poor cameras.

[mikeb]

something to entertain while waiting for your train

Southern Rail game

http://games.ramjam.co.uk/srt/

[Sally Eva]

Bike Train to central London running Wednesday July 27th from Denmark Hill and Peckham Stations.

Full details in "what's on" forum

[dirac]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bike Train to central London running Wednesday

> July 27th from Denmark Hill and Peckham Stations.

>

> Full details in "what's on" forum

Planning on joining tomorrow from Peckham Rye to Blackfriars; see you then.