EU Debate - I am Voting to Leave

[LondonMix]

Agreed. Elections are won on vague and simply seductive slogans. Take back control can mean whatever anyone who hears it wants it to mean. As House of Cards taught us, the vaguer the better when dealing with the electorate.

Loz Wrote:

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> Jeremy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > The public should have to pass some sort of

> basic

> > IQ test before being allowed to vote.

>

> Nobody ever won an election by assuming the

> general public is intelligent. That's why the

> Brexitters' "take back control" mantra (which

> Boris answered pretty much every question with in

> last night's debate) has been so effective.

['bout now]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Seems to me this referendum isn't really about the

> EU: it's actually more a vote on the current-day

> UK with old grievances and resentments which have

> been simmering away for years bubbling up to the

> surface - in particularly caustic and unpleasant

> ways.

>

> North v South, white v brown, rich v poor, town v

> country, province v capital - scores to be settled

> everywhere, all under the banner of This EU Thing

> which 95% of the population never gave a monkeys

> about, understood, or probably thought to cast a

> vote for.. until now it's all so terribly,

> terribly important.

>

> Watching people I know (on both sides) slamming up

> all sorts of inflammatory shit on Facebook is

> bizarre. The sooner order is restored and we can

> get back to holiday snaps, turnips shaped like

> Jesus and cats falling into a bath - the better.

These are very wise words.

[Blah Blah]

Yes there is an element of tell the people what they want to hear with elections. Watching that debate last night, it felt like a party rally for Boris, rather than any kind of balanced hustings.

[SLad]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > DulwichFox Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Well poor UK. citizens do not go and live in

> > Europe.. France. Belgium. Italy. Germany..

> >

> > Maybe, but I reckon we export more unproductive

> > people - how many retired people head to Europe?

>

> > Apparently there are over half a million in

> Spain

> > alone.

>

> Well .. I would of thought they have done their

> bit for this country in their time..

> Let them enjoy the Sun in their final years..

>

> Foxy

What a cripplingly inane comment.

But, actually, this means you should vote Remain as without free movement of people it's going to be much harder for those hard-working retirees to get to Spain to enjoy their sunshine dotage.

[DulwichFox]

SLad Wrote:

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> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loz Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > DulwichFox Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > Well poor UK. citizens do not go and live

> in

> > > Europe.. France. Belgium. Italy. Germany..

> > >

> > > Maybe, but I reckon we export more

> unproductive

> > > people - how many retired people head to

> Europe?

> >

> > > Apparently there are over half a million in

> > Spain

> > > alone.

> >

> > Well .. I would of thought they have done their

> > bit for this country in their time..

> > Let them enjoy the Sun in their final years..

> >

> > Foxy

>

> What a cripplingly inane comment.

>

> But, actually, this means you should vote Remain

> as without free movement of people it's going to

> be much harder for those hard-working retirees to

> get to Spain to enjoy their sunshine dotage.

What I was saying was let us not begrudge those enjoying the Spanish Sun...

But that is not most important issue.. I'm thinking about people living in the U.K. and what is best for them.

My opinion is that it is better to leave. Many will disagree. But no one really knows what is the best.

Any dicesion will not benifit everyone.

I just want the U.K. to take back control.

DulwichFox

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I just want the U.K. to take back control.

So you listened to the bland sound bite, Foxy... but the question remains - of what? Where don't we have control?

[DulwichFox]

Loz Wrote:

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> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I just want the U.K. to take back control.

>

> So you listened to the bland sound bite, Foxy...

> but the question remains - of what? Where don't

> we have control?

FACT

EU law is supreme over UK law. This stops the British public from being able to vote out those who make our laws

FACT

Our 'Supreme Court' is the European Court of Justice. We?ve lost control of trade, human rights, and migration

FACT

The Eurozone has a permanent voting majority and can always outvote the UK

FACT

Losing control costs a fortune - if you vote 'remain' you?ll be paying for euro bailouts

The European Commission is now planning the next EU Treaty to fix the euro?s problems.

Every Treaty since the 1950s has given Brussels more power.

Appologies for cutting and pasting.. Read more here.. http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_control

DulwichFox

[LondonMix]

Fox, David Cameron already got an agreement from the EU before the referendum that Britain wouldn't pay for Eurozone bailouts.

[Blah Blah]

And we are not part of the Euro zone either. EU directives only impact on 16% of our laws also. So as Loz asked, take back control of what?

And just on migration, we already have a points system for non EU migrants, and we let in more of those than EU migrants last year. It's commerce that drives movement of people, not the EU.

[uncleglen]

And how long before that is reversed? As DF says we have no powers of self determination on almost everything...and what is left will be gone soon...The EU set up reminds me of the old soviet Russia where only the party faithful had any kind of normal life....I wish I had never read Franz Kafka.....then I might have voted remain!

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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It's interesting that you had to copy-and-paste from a Brexit website, rather than actually tell me what YOU think 'take back control' meant.

But to answer your - sorry, their - points...

> FACT

> EU law is supreme over UK law. This stops the British public from being able to vote out those

> who make our laws

The EU makes up about 13% of our laws, mostly in the areas of standardisation that we would have to comply with anyway. And, as today shows, we can vote them out any time we like. There is no issue with EU laws at them moment, so why do it now?

> FACT

> Our 'Supreme Court' is the European Court of Justice. We?ve lost control of trade, human

> rights, and migration

The EU has given us more human rights, not less. So when you say 'take back control', are you actually saying we want to REDUCE human rights?? No thanks.

Trade - exiting the EU will make trade harder. So when you say 'take back control', are you actually saying we want to REDUCE trade?? No thanks.

Migration. Non-EU migration (where we do 'have control') is higher than EU migration. When Boris was asked directly the other night 'would the proposed new immigration controls actually reduce immigration' he refused to answer.

>

> FACT

> The Eurozone has a permanent voting majority and can always outvote the UK

Yep. It's called 'democracy'. England, Scotland and NI together can always outvote Wales. Are you arguing we should break up the Union?

But we do have a vote share in Europe that reflects our population. Plus we (like the others) have a veto on important issues like who joins.

> FACT

> Losing control costs a fortune - if you vote 'remain' you?ll be paying for euro bailouts

I'm going to go for a cut-and-paste here, because this says it better than I can...

The UK has provided a total of ?6.5bn (?5bn) via the EU for two bailouts: ?3bn for Ireland in November 2010 and ?3.5bn for Portugal in May 2011. With both Ireland and Portugal now out of their bailout programmes, the UK has got this money back. The UK has not made a contribution via the EU for any other eurozone bailouts.

The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis.

So your last 'FACT' is actually a complete and utter fiction.

What will cost us is Brexit - just about every economist agrees that if we vote Brexit today we are in for at least two very, very rough years. And that will cost everybody. A lot.

So, when you say 'take back control', you actually want to steer the ship into some very bad waters. No thanks.

[rendelharris]

Edit: written while Loz was posting obviously, but worth restating the FACT that saying FACT in capital letters does not actually make the FACT, de facto, a FACT.

> > DulwichFox Wrote:

>

> FACT

> EU law is supreme over UK law. This stops the

> British public from being able to vote out those

> who make our laws

Fact: EU law is made by negotiation amongst member states on a ten yearly basis, with our elected representatives having just as much say as anybody else. Sometimes (rarely) the UK may be outvoted, but complaining about that in a representative body is like complaining that your personal MP was outvoted by a majority of other MPs.

> FACT

> Our 'Supreme Court' is the European Court of

> Justice. We?ve lost control of trade, human

> rights, and migration

Fact: Our elected governments helped to draft and agreed to European Law and the ECJ only rules on misapplication of that law. The ECJ does not rule on migration numbers.

> FACT

> The Eurozone has a permanent voting majority and

> can always outvote the UK

Fact: again, if you're part of any association you have to accept that your vote is only one amongst many. It's called democracy. This is why we need a government who will work with EU partners to achieve compromise instead of huffing that we don't get our own way all the time.

> FACT

> Losing control costs a fortune - if you vote

> 'remain' you?ll be paying for euro bailouts

Fact: the deal with the EU agreed in February was that the UK will not provide any money for Euro bailouts, either directly or indirectly. If any portion of EU capital is used in Euro bailouts the UK's stake in that capital must be returned to the UK.

[Blah Blah]

Good posts Loz amd Rendel.

[*Bob*]

As someone who shops at Tesco because every little helps, drinks Red Bull because it gives you wings and eats at McDonalds because I'm lovin' it - I am definitely voting for Brexit to take back control.

[civilservant]

thanks for giving this thread back its thoroughly British soul back, Bob, for a while I was afraid it had been hijacked!

not yet voted, but will go forth and do my duty, accompanied by child (because she needs to know what fun universal suffrage is) and dog (because dogs outside polling stations exude a peculiarly British kind of charm)

and then the waiting begins...

[Louisa]

Not sure why, but in the last hour or so the markets have taken a bit of a jitter. The bookies are still overwhelmingly backing a remain vote, and last nights polls were fairly neck and neck. Can anyone explain if further info has come to light?

Louisa.

[Loz]

Looks like there was early trading on the back of the late polls, then it dropped back to the starting levels, presumable on profit taking before the actual results.

[Jules-and-Boo]

probabaly as it's so up in the air....roll on tomorrow

[LondonMix]

Its because of the shooting in Germany

Louisa Wrote:

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> Not sure why, but in the last hour or so the

> markets have taken a bit of a jitter. The bookies

> are still overwhelmingly backing a remain vote,

> and last nights polls were fairly neck and neck.

> Can anyone explain if further info has come to

> light?

>

> Louisa.

[LondonMix]

25-50 wounded / dead. The markets fear that if its an foreign / Islamist terrorist attack while the polls are still open, the sentiment in the UK might shift back to Brexit.

The market found out about it before it went live on the mainstream press but its now everywhere.

[civilservant]

eh? this is all that the BBC has to say

Heavily armed police have surrounded a cinema complex in western Germany amid reports that a gunman has barricaded himself inside. German media reports suggest a man fired at least one shot at the Kinopolis complex in Viernheim, near Frankfurt. At least 20 people are said have been injured, many reportedly as the result of a release of tear gas. It is unclear if the man is alone or if he has taken hostages.

[LondonMix]

I know. I never said it was a terrorist attack. I said the market fears it could be and if it is, that it will influence the vote.

[LondonMix]

Also, the press has said he opened fire. The German special forces have now shot him dead. Edited as the press stories have changed as more information has come through

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/germany-shooting-man-opens-fire-in-cinema-complex-in-viernheim/

[civilservant]

"the sky is falling" said Chicken Little, and the markets, and their friends in the EDF ran around like headless chickens

[Jules-and-Boo]

oh dear god.