How not to f*** them up - Oliver James - anyone read it?

[littleEDfamily]

Just bought this book and ploughed through the first two thirds yesterday. Finding it interesting but of course slightly depressed to hear I've probably f***ed up my 3 year old.

Anyone else read it?

[Helen GV]

oh well, plenty of time to try and undo damage, and if not, to save for therapy! :o)

[littleEDfamily]

Apparently if you haven't got it right in the first 3 years, there's a technique called 'Love Bombing' whereby you lavish cuddles and general affection on them. I think that's a separate book.... in the meantime, she's already sick of my slobbering!

[redjam]

I really dislike Oliver James. From what I've read of his Guardian columns, it seems that in his opinion virtually all women f*** their kids up, you're damned pretty much whatever you choose to do (and it's always the mother's fault; funnily enough dads never seem to get much of mention). I shouldn't even read his columns as I always get enraged, though of course I keep finding myself drawn to them like a moth to a flame. He seems to be particularly prone to making statements about, say, severely neglected orphanage children having later mental health problems, then extrapolating that your baby will end up with personality disorder unless you co-sleep and breastfeed on demand 24 hours a day. Now I'm no Gina Ford, but there's a big difference between abandoning a baby in an orphanage and gently easing a child into a sensible routine in the context of a loving family. Ditto his beef about nurseries - as it happens, I'm not a fan of long-term daycare for tiny little babies, but for some people it's an economic necessity, and somehow it's quite annoying to have an Eton/Cambridge-educated male preach about it in such alarmist tones (I bet they were financially secure enough in their house for his wife to give up work when he had children).

Sorry, rant over, he obviously presses my buttons!

[littleEDfamily]

Phew - thanks redjam. You've given me some perspective. I tend to be a little bit on the stiff upper lip side, and instinctively feel that humans are resilient creatures and that excessive mollycoddling (who knows how to spell!?) does none of us any favours.

But then again, I am the classic 'Organiser' mum (read: devil incarnate), who committed the ultimate sin of changing childcare arrangements SEVERAL times in the first 2.5 years. I knew it wasn't ideal at the time.... but who knew I was sooooo bad!

Did anyone see old Ollie boy on the Wright Stuff last week or the week before? He was doing a lot of ranting in a bad shirt!

BUT... personal comments about his dress sense aside, there is one insight that has resonated with me, and that is that children ultimately behave themselves because of the good relationship they have with their parents and the fact that they don't want to displease them (as opposed to being 'trained', Supernanny style not to enter into 'unacceptable' behaviour). The 'technique' approach has always struck me as a bit American and contrived, and I cannot remember my mum and dad ever needing star charts or naughty steps (and I was a perfectly good child).

[Moos]

Well said, redjam. I wrote a really narky post about him and deleted it again on grounds of being too hormonal... Talk about damned if you do..

[Jessie]

I'm with Redjam too. Before being a mother I liked him, now I'm afraid I loathe him. He does nothing for working mothers and infuriates me!

[Rogue Apostrophe]

You know what is best for your child, not some TV-psycho such as Oliver J.

If you are looking for a book that is a nice antidote to conventional parenting and encourages you not to stress too much about it, then try the Aaargh to Zzzz of Parenting:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aargh-Zzzz-Parenting-Alternative-Guide/dp/022408626X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276539793&sr=1-1

I've got it out from Dulwich Library at the moment, but should have it back there in a few days!

[crystal7]

Agree with redjam moos and jessie- his column in the guardian seems designed to make working mothers feel guilty.

[gwod]

Did anyone hear Martha Kearney getting really narky with him a couple of weeks ago on Woman's hour? She very effectively put him in his place - it was great listening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00sfhs4

Edited to say it was actually Jenni Murray and to add the link - I'm guessing she is a working mother - she gets very irritated with him

[littleEDfamily]

He does seem to have it in for capitalism too, which grates with me, as the whole reason I started my own business (and therefore became a protagonist in what he feels is this hideous consumerist culture) is because it was the only way I could attempt to reconcile the practical and emotional difficulties I found being a mother who wants to work.......I am doubley peeved since he went to such a ridiculously posh school (which I did not know!!!!)and is clearly from a very comfortable background (albeit the son of a miserable cow - paraphrased from his account of his mum). The other thing I noticed in the book is how often he plugs the need for anyone who is slightly struggling with life to see a therapist (bit of self interest there no doubt - it's not capitalism when it's the therapist making money!)

Now I've started ranting!!!!!

PS... Moos, spoilsport!

[reren]

ooh - thank goodness i'm not alone on this one - i can't bear oliver james! His columns enrage me every week and like redjam i can't seem to stop reading them! He repeats the same thing over and over and is completely unconstructive! the guardian and observer give him way too much airtime. He's always going on about how women shouldn't choose to go back to work if they aren't happy with the idea of working - when surely the vast majority aren't in a position to choose - its a necessity... arrgghh - completely agree with everyone on this one!

[ClareC]

Ive not read the book or the column...... will avoid like the plague!!! The guilt thing is bad enough (and I haven't gone back to work yet) without someone like that spouting off!!

[poppy]

I'm a child psychologist and while I haven't read Oliver James, I would say that anyone who loves their child and cares about not f***ing them up is highly unlikely to do so, so don't worry at all, littleEDfamily or ClareC! I work with children with mental health problems and they are not caused by inadvertant bad parenting or sending children to nursery. Obviously child abuse and neglect are another story, but children raised in a loving family will be completely fine. Doesn't matter whether you follow Gina Ford, breast or bottle feed, work or stay at home - the important things (as we all know) are to love your child, feed them and keep them safe!

[littleEDfamily]

Thanks, poppy! I think I am going to read my brand new Elle Decoration instead of the remaining third of the book!

[poppy]

Good!!

[ClareC]

Thank's Poppy :-)

Sounds an excellent plan LittleEDfamily!

[citizenED]

I've read OJ in the guardian a few times and...er, I usually quite like what he says. I'm no expert on him but I tend to think of his work generally as a critique of how Capitalist society is set up, rather than an attempt to make individuals feel guilty. I think he is empathising with the way we all have to struggle to bestow love, and, more importantly, time on our kids.

I read enough of OJ's book "Affluenza" so appreciate that his stance in life is anti-capitalist. He hates how it turns us into consumers and materialsts. Maybe it is a touch too hippy and psycho-babble and galling coming from someone with his background but when he is giving that advice I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. His heart is in the right place.

Agree with poppy re the general good home/plenty of love/good diet equals happy kids scenario

[Moos]

Thanks poppy, it's nice to hear something reassuring about doing-your-flawed-but-loving-best parenting for a change.

See how calmly I posted that? B) Sorry, little edf... ;-)

[poppy]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

.

> Agree with poppy re the general good home/plenty

> of love/good diet equals happy kids scenario

Absolutely, but even if your children eat turkey twizzlers all day they still won't end up in therapy because of it!

Being a good enough parent is all that counts (I do often have to remind myself of this BTW)

[Belle]

LOVED the argh to ZZZ book - very funny, and absolutely spot on. have the oliver james book too and looking forward to reading it - don't know if will agree with what he says or not but do enjoy reading different parenting stuff, find the whole subject interesting. To be fair though Little ED Family - it's hardly his fault where he went to school - that would be his parents' choice :)

From what I've read of his stuff in the Guardian, I don't fall any of his categories as he typifies stay at home mums as the sling-wearing/attachment parenting type which I most definitely am not, despite being a SAHM. I identify more with what he calls the 'fleximum' which tend to be part-time workers I think.

[Gimme]

The great thing about books like this is that you can agree with them or disagree with them. They don't have to affect your behaviour or make you guilty. Just pick and choose the bits you think make sense for you.

We found most of Gina Ford's Contented Baby book to be a load of tosh but there were a few bits and bobs that we picked up and have used. Likewise with Oliver James - read it, pick out some bits you think work for you but remember that there's lots of other books out there with lots of different views some of which you will agree with and some you won't. Don't let one book f*** you up.

[plimsoul]

poppy, such great words, a real reminder that amongst the hundreds of ?'s that can be spent reading up on babies/kids all that really matters is loving parenting.

on a personal level, i particularly loved your turkey twizzler comment as my kids are not the worst but certainly not the best eaters and it made me laugh. jamie oliver has converted the twizzler into an instant national icon.

[littleEDfamily]

Hmmm..well, Fleximums are frequently part-timers, but that's not what defines them. OJ seems to believe that the main danger of being a fleximum (ie neither a emotionally distant 'Organiser' or an attachment parenting type 'Hugger') is that you fool yourself into believing that compromise is possible, and that often you falsely believe win-win scenarios can be achieved (ie arrangements in which neither your child or you are losing out). Essentially, it seems a lot of Fleximums (according to OJ) are chirpy and pragmatic, yet still fundamentally selfish.

As far as his upbringing is concerned, I have nothing against toffs per se, and in general try not to judge people by their backgrounds, but the fact is that that kind of education bestows upon you phenomental contacts in useful places, giving you a massive headstart in life and a completely different menu of choices than is availble to Jo Average. If, like OJ, you choose a career in which you pass judgment about the life decisions of others (even if he does try to get us to belive those judgments are research based), I think upbringing and associated advantage or disadvantage is relevant. I'm sure he wouldn't have the options he has in terms of parenting if it weren't for his background (chances are he would never have become a published author!)

That all said, i think he has some useful insights in spite the fact that I think his perspective is essentially unrealistic and misogynist.

I'm going to therefore persevere with my Love Bombing.

[reren]

ha ha - i just listened to the BBC radio piece gwod posted - very pleasing to see him brought down a peg or two. Its the absolute certainty with which he pronounces on things that gets on my nerves. He has some very weird views about mental illness as well and he seems to see that as completely down to nurture! Does he have children of his own I wonder? Or is he just speaking from the personal experience of being f***d up?