Football Focus

[atila the gooner]

Well said Lady Anna.

[Sandperson]

Annasfield Wrote:

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> Jah Lush Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I largely agree with you there Simon and I

> think

> > Kevin Keegan was right in what he said last

> week

> > that you would have to spend ?150 million to

> get

> > yourself into the top four. Spurs have been

> tipped

> > to get there over the past few seasons and

> > probably will be again if we spend big this

> year

> > but I can't see it myself. The best I can hope

> for

> > next season is finishing 5th and winning the

> UEFA

> > Cup and maybe a domestic trophy like the

> Carling

> > Cup again or the FA Cup.

>

>

> We've not spent ?150 million and Arsenal haven't

> even got close to that figure. Agreed that you

> have to spend to be competitive, but the money

> that United and Chelsea throw at players is

> ridiculous.

?40-?50M isn't exactly small change Anna, come on.

[Jah Lush]

In qualifying what I think Kevin Keegan was trying to say was that clubs out of the top four would have to spend that sort of money to get on the same level, to be on an equal footing with the Big Four.

[Annasfield]

Sandperson Wrote:

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> ?40-?50M isn't exactly small change Anna, come

> on.

I assume you're basing that on our big signings of the last (current) season?

The major money we have spent has been on the following

Torres ?20 million

Mascherano ?18 million

Babel ?8 million

Benayoun ?5 million

Yep, you're right we've spent about ?50 mill. However in terms of what we've spent and who we've sold doesn't ever seem to be factored in. We sold Bellamy (?7.5m), Sissoko (?8.2m), Luis Garica (?7m). Not quite the ?50m figure that is banded about. It will be the same this season, we will have to see players to buy new ones.

I don't know the ins and outs of United and Chelsea, but if you consider that Torres is our record signing and that Chelsea signed Essien for a cool ?30 million, we've spent nothing like they have.

Just goes to show that you can buy a CL final if you so desire. ;-)

[Keef]

I don't think money is really the big issue. Hanson got it right when he said last night that the top players in the world will come here to play for one of the top 4, and be in the champs league, it's as simple as that. No offence to the likes of spurs, Newcastle, Villa or Everton, but a player at Real Madrid, or Barca will look over here and say, I'm going to go to a top 4 club even if others offer the same money. 2 players have gone to Spurs for less money than Newcastle was offering them, because Spurs are more likely to get success.

Top players will go to top clubs, and if a player sets the world on fire at another club, then all the top clubs will go for him... Berbatov for example.

[DaveR]

Similar observations on MOTD last night about the money you have to spend to break into the top four. The problem for Everton, Spurs, Villa etc. is that big name players want to know who else you've got, or are getting, to make sure you're serious about getting that Champions League spot. If Spurs could hold on to Berbatov it would make it easier to sign players of a similar class - if he goes, they will struggle. The alternative is a big name manager (in international terms) with a record for taking clubs (and players) to the highest level - Mourinho, anyone?

[Sandperson]

True, but we sell players too. I got that figure from an interview with Rafa that I came across on the web (it never lies you know) in which he was quoted as saying that Man Ure/United had spent ?70M. Not a lot more and also not taking into account players sold.

Let's not kid ourselves here. We are lucky we support successful (both on the pitch and in financial terms) teams. I would be very suprised if any of us when we were forming a fledgling relationship with said clubs were ordering copies of their financial projections from the Stock Exchange. I am sorry that I support a rich club and it ruins it for everyone else but thems the breaks. I don't think Liverpool are building their brand spanking new 60,000 (is that all? ;-)) seat stadium so they can give away the extra 15,000 tickets...

[citizenED]

And the added problem for clubs in the regions is that the top foreign players want to be in London

[Annasfield]

I agree with what everyone here is saying in relation to this topic, but the point I'm trying to make is that Liverpool are successful (and a top four club) because of our history - not because we can now splash a bit of cash. We haven't gone out and bought our success.

Torres wanted to come to Liverpool because he followed them as a child and he hoped he would be successful here. How many of the 19-28 year olds playing in today's game had a burning desire to play for Chelsea?

"His arm band proved he was a red" (Keef - you know the song)

In terms of our new stadium - I'd rather stay at Anfield than have an extra 15,000 seats. We'd be better off modernising the Main and Centenary stands. Would love to stay put, but I suppose we have to move with the times.

[DaveR]

Doesn't matter how much Torres loved Liverpool as a kid, the price tag was still ?20 million, and if you hadn't paid it, he'd probably be playing for Chelsea or Man U right now

[Annasfield]

Yes and we were able to meet the transfer fee because of our success, not because of investment! If you wanted to simply win trophies, at this exact moment in time (or 10 months ago) who would you sign/have signed for? I doubt many people on here would say Liverpool.

I'm aware that the Yanks have bought out the Moores family, however their promise of transfer funds has hardly been forthcoming.

[DaveR]

Sorry Annasfield, I don't get it - obviously you want to feel superior to Chelsea fans etc., but saying Liverpool are successful now because of their history is wishful thinking - it's because you've decided to spend what it takes. The history gives you an advantage if a player is choosing between you and say Villa (who have a fine history, but not so well known beyond Birmingham), but it's hardly a decisive factor.

Liverpool are attempting to buy success because it's the only way of winning the premiership - nothing to be ashamed of, but you might as well accept it.

[SimonM]

Liverpool - right back to Shankly - have always used the transfer market to strengthen their sides. This is not the same at all as buying the Championship in the way that Blackburn Rovers did a few years back and Chelsea have done more recently. When the Russian Cash Dispenser tires of his toy and leaves then watch Chelsea sink back to their natural level (better than Fulham, not quite Spurs-class :))). Liverpool - and Arsenal under Wenger - both know nurturing young players and judicious dealings in the transfer market are the only way to get lasting success.

[dc]

dc Wrote:

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> I'm a Watford fan and we've [previously] done pretty

> well in the playoffs - only to crash straight back

> down with a record low points score of course.

>

> Can't see it this year though - our form of late

> has been so poor. I reckon Hull will go up via the

> playoffs with West Brom and Stoke taking the

> automatic slots. At the bottom? Southampton to

> beat Sheff U at home to stay up thereby condemning

> Leicester to the drop when they lose away to

> Stoke.

Tragically, if the full set of predictions are to prove correct, the Hornets will not be reversing that 2-0 'tactical' defeat we take to the KC Stadium.

[Annasfield]

As we are constantly reminded - we have not won the Premiership. Ever. FACT! Had we have not been such a successful club in the 70'S and 80's, then yes I believe we would have not stayed in the top four and for some seasons we didn't. However, because of our brand we still attracted some of the best.

Who are the two biggest English clubs in the world? Manchester United and Liverpool. The main reasons being because of their success and because of self-promotion. Something which Liverpool haven't done so well at, hence Hick's request for Parry's resignation.

I think it's sad that we are branded in with the likes of Chelsea and teams that can pay anything for any player, as it's not the Liverpool way. Sadly as has been pointed out, in order to compete you do have to spend.

However, Arsenal have proved this season that you don't need to spend a fortune on players to excel in your league. No one even factored Arsenal as title contenders this season, but they steamed ahead with Wenger and the young lads. I truly believe that in a few years they will be a force to be reckoned with and not because they some Russian fella has decided to buy himself a plaything.

You said yourself that you don't get my point. I don't want to feel superior to any fans. Be proud of your club and their achievements, there is nothing wrong with that. I agree with almost all of your points, but I do think that if Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea put exactly the same offer on the table certain players would chose Liverpool and others Chelsea or United. I suppose it depends on where their priorities lie. Sadly it?s not really about the football anymore ? it?s more about how big a salary can be earned.

[Annasfield]

Thank you Simon - a point I was trying to make earlier but not doing a very good job.

[DaveR]

Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher, Skrtel, Insua, Kuyt (Lucas 80), Gerrard, Mascherano, Babel (Benayoun 59), Torres, Voronin (Finnan 71).

How many 'nurtured' young players? I have no grudge against Liverpool, but it's a simple fact that if you want to compete in the premiership you have to spend big, and peel off young player who other clubs have developed, and in that sense Liverpool are no different in principle to the others - its just a question of degree. Chelsea were/are successful because they appointed a gifted manager who bought good players and made them into a good team (Blackburn did the same). Rafa is a good coach and will be asking for ?40 - 50 million to spend over the summer because that's what it takes.

NB - lasting success - 18 years since Liverpool last won the title

[Annasfield]

And who of that list was a big name before signing for us? With the exception of Torres and maybe Mascher (who would never have sold from West Ham for ?18m at the end of last season), Rafa has shrewdly studied other teams.

Voronin was a free transfer, Gerrard, Carra' and Insua all game through our youth team. Admittedly Insua isn't homegrown but you'll get my point.

Lets do the same with Chelsea and Man Utd's starting 11 on Sunday

Chelsea

Cech, Essien, Alex, Terry, Ashley Cole, Ballack, Makelele, Lampard, Joe Cole, Drogba, Malouda.

Tell me who out of that lot went came through Chelsea's youth squad or came through as free transfer? One of them - JT. (nice fella)

Man Utd

Van der Sar, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Park, Tevez, Rooney.

A couple more here - Brown & Scholes

In United's teams Rooney, Carrick, Tevez and Ronaldo cost a reported ?81 million and I can't even be bothered to look at Chelsea's price tag.

I think we are both arguing the same point here, I'm just trying to point out that we're not even close to the realms of Chelsea and United in terms of spending.

[DaveR]

I think we are both arguing the same point here, I'm just trying to point out that we're not even close to the realms of Chelsea and United in terms of spending.

I think earlier on you suggested the difference was 'history', not just differing amounts of cash - if you agree its the latter, no problem.

NB

Richard Wright

Fabian Wilnis

Jamie Clapham

John McGreal

Mark Venus

Hermann Hreidarsson

Matt Holland

Jermaine Wright

Jim Magilton

Marcus Stewart

James Scowcroft

Ipswich Town team who beat Liverpool at Anfield, Premier League 2000-1

[Annasfield]

My refrence to history was in relation to attracting bigger players and funding them. Liverpool have been one of the richer clubs through success, not being bought by a billionaire. It was insinuated that Liverpool are successful because of what we've spent. I was trying to demonstrate that that isn't the case, hence my reference to our success in the 70's & 80's.

Why don't you list the Barnsley team that knocked us and

Chelsea out of the FA cup this season or go back to 2005 when it was Burnley. Not that is has any relevance.

P.S - If you're an Ipswich supporter we're never going to get along. My second team is Norwich.

[Sandperson]

Come on. Manchester United's success was built on several seasons not spending much at all, in fact in the mid 90's I seem to remember us spending about ?250,000 in one season. We built a team around Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Sharpe etc. with a fabulous keeper and British defenders like Bruce, Pallister. Not to mention McClair and a (bought in, but at a bargain price) talismanic Frenchman. We started spending money when we needed to to perform in Europe (oh, the irony!).

[Annasfield]

SimonM Wrote:

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> Now then..."Colin"....rearrange the letters of

> "Neil Warnock" into another two word name, the

> forename of which is Colin?? As there are

> (reputedly? B)) ladies who read this thread then a

> nod should be as good as a wa- wink right?

>

Ahem, I have only just noticed this..... :X

I have long hair and countless pairs of shoes y'know!! ;-)

[SimonM]

>>I have long hair and countless pairs of shoes y'know!! <<

URSarahJessicaParker&ICM?5!!! :)):)):))

Returning to football....Leeds now have as hard a task of getting promotion as Crystal Palace....

[atila the gooner]

Extremely surprised that Leeds lost at home last night. It's an uphill struggle for them now.

[david_carnell]

Bo%^ocks!

Not a good night. We looked second best throughout although the Carlisle keeper played the game of his life.

Freedman's wish for double play-off success with us and Palace looks unlikely. His 96th(!) min goal proved a lifeline and he's been the best loan signing we've made in years.

Uphill struggle now and the near 40,000 that turned up for the game were gutted. Fingers crossed for Thurs. Anyone know a good pub near Holborn or London Bridge that has Sky? I'm off to watch with a fellow London Leeds fan.