The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[SeanMacGabhann]

All of us born between 22nd Sep and 22 Oct do Brendan - it's such an injustice. Some of us wanted to be footballers and doctors but no - the stars spoke

[SeanMacGabhann]

>:D< I just knew someone would say that cdonline!

[Brendan]

I?ve never understood how being born at a certain time of year can affect you personality. I?m a Gemini and neither of us think it makes a difference.

[Jah Lush]

Everyone should believe in something and I believe I'll have another drink.

[david_carnell]

Except narcissists...they believe in nothing.

"We believe in nothing Lebowski, nothing!"

[SeanMacGabhann]

Me too - and I believe it's your round >:D

[Jah Lush]

It's always my bleeding round, that's why I'm perpetually skint. Anyway, sorry you lot were having a serious conversation weren't you so I'll let you get on with it and I'll go and be silly somewhere else.

[Brendan]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Except narcissists...they believe in nothing.

>

> "We believe in nothing Lebowski, nothing!"

I think you?ll find they are Nihilist David (One of Flea's great cameos).

Narcissists believe in me.

[SeanMacGabhann]

"Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Soc-ialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos. " Walter

Ok I promise to go back on topic - but David MADE me quote from one of my favourite films!!!

[david_carnell]

Oh the shame of writing before thinking!

:-$:-$:-$

[Mark]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Everyone should believe in something and I believe

> I'll have another drink.

Jah Lush - The True Friend of Reason, Channel 4, 8pm

I'd rather watch that any day, would nicely take the edge of things. Rather like a black sambuca.

[monica]

I am very surprised at many comments on here from certain people,as a retailer in the health food industry and a Reflexologist,/Degree In Nutritional Medicine i come across cynics all the time,especially on days when the chemist is closed and we are not.A mother whos child has a fever cant get hold of the calpol so she has no choice but to try chamomile until the chemist opens,and what happens,the next day mother comes in and thanks us,why?Did the whacky remedy chamomile help the real life fever yes,it did.We need pharmaceuticals in cases of severe illness but most of the time,we need to look after ourselves.do you think an asprin or neurofen will help deal with the cause of the headache you have because your life is stressed,no it wont.Self and looking after self will.Reiki works for me and many others,obviously ignorance works for most

[citizenED]

Great debate, and good to see a large dose of perspective coming in in the later posts. The thing with those who are so skeptical, or simply cynical, is why? A common theme on here is "live and let live" so why do some of you guys seemingly care so much that a few Alternative Therapy practitioners are providing solace and care to people who are perfectly willing to pay for it? Have you become righteous and magnanomous beings on a mission to protect the middle classes from being ripped off (for lets face it, it is the middle classes who indulge). How mighty noble of you. As far as I can see, if people want to get a buzz from a session of aromatherapy who are we to deny them? Some people get their treatment in the form of a trip to the pub, or attending football matches, or a massage. All these various therapies are all just one long line of options. I do think, however, just to be provocative, that there is an evident gender issue going on here. Lots of guys, with their analyical, scientific minds trying to debunk a largely female way of looking at the world.

citizen

[mockney piers]

Ha [gender issue], that's just what ladygooner said to me.

Mayhap true.

Forgive me for my righteous ways. As it goes, chamomile, it's a pharmacuetical with known properties. How is that different to aspirin in any way shape or form?

[Jeremy]

Herbal remedies are totally different to "spiritual" treatments... they are both sometimes labelled as "alternative" or "complimentary", but that's where the similarity ends.

Citizen: The gender issue is an interesting one - perhaps men are less open to new ideas which are outside the realm of science, I really don't know! But in my case, open cynicism towards certain beliefs doesn't mean I wish to protect those people... it's more of a curiosity as to how these beliefs are spread.

As for Monica's parting shot... yes I agree, if we lead stressful or unhealthy lifestyles then that needs to be addressed. Make more time for yourself and your family... take more exercise... change your diet... pills are not an appropriate substitute, but neither is reiki.

[MadWorld74]

Monica and Citizen Ed, nice to have your thoughts on this previously one-sided thread. Yes, it is/was being dominated heavily by male middle-classes theorists who were trying to brand me as some sort of threat to their intelligence. It became hard work. 'Prove yourself' some demanded, 'Admit you were wrong' others prompted.

I got an apology from some and a hug from another so all is well in the MW camp.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Monica - your post suggests that we are all avid pill-poppers at the slightest sign of ailment. Rest assured in my case that isn't so. And I totally agree with you that it's our lifestyle is what would benefit most if we cared to (is now a good time to crowbar the driving-you-car-everywhere-debate in?? hmm probably not Mr MacGabhann...)

To take your example of the child with a fever, who could have a problem with chamomile helping him? Anything that works is fine by me. But I'm assuming in the case of the child he didn't have to buy in to any philosophy for it to work (which is what we are told is needed in the R-word case?)

I think most of the "anti" brigade on here, myself included are the opposite of close-minded. I approach everything with a curiosity as to how it can be useful to me, mine and the world. So I am fair game to buy into many of the areas in question. But with curiousity comes examination. Is that a male trait? I don't think so .. but certainly the eviedence on this thread suggests a breakdown on gender lines. In any case simply by examining, for example, Reiki, I don't see what it gives me that common sense and a someone with good hands doesn't - it's the need to build up a philosphy behind it that sets up a barrier for me. But if others like it then, as Ed suggests who am I to stop them. But I don't think I'm trying to stop anyone - I AM trying to figure out what the deal is but every question seems to be met with a large degree of defensiveness

I certainly wouldn't want to sound like someone who wouldn't go to your shop Monica. I have been in there (far more than the chemist nearby) and love your postings too

[mockney piers]

Can we have an ED forum version of Boyle's Law, say Louisa's Law, that the moment class is brought into the equation inappropriately, a thread is rendered null and void?

[MadWorld74]

I think SMG the degree of defensiveness; especially from my part, was due to the fact that I knew I would have had whatever I said shot down/dragged over the analysing coals from the get go. I put out threads and replied in a defensive way largely due to the fact that I realised I wasn't going to get a very equally matched debate. You realised it too, hence your comment yesterday about being 'ganged up on'.

If others like Monica and Citizen Ed had been in with me from the start I think the tone of my threads especially would have been very different. I fought my corner and yes, was openly defensive. I tried not to be, but it seemed like some had a bug bear they needed to vent on me personally, hence my reaction.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Relax MW I don't mean you, or even anyone on this thread. It's at any time in the past.

It may be true that practitioners are so well used to constant questions that the default setting is "defensiveness" but I don't see a way past the questions. Sure some people will have bought into it already and be "on message" as it were but as with any ideal/philosophy it has to be robust enough to answer questions.

People still give christianty/judaism/islam a fair old questioning (and rightly so IMO) and they survive

Have another hug.

[MadWorld74]

thanks :))

[cdonline]

Is it me, or do those who believe in alternative therapies always seem to have sort of ailment going on?

Colds, rashes, the pox, you name it, they've had it and swear they have the answer to treat it. Ah, rub this stone on it, pop this rather large pill, chant that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

cdonline, you can join the group on this side of the line, but everyone has only JUST calmed down so no provoking (for a little while anyway...)

Cup of tea?

[MadWorld74]

alternative therapists aren't usually hypocondriacs....

[mockney piers]

I'm sorry to be constantly at odds with you MW74 as I'm really rather fond of you.

I've spent my whole life around alternative types, Letchworth having had a long tradition of it (just read Betjeman's poem), and my family on my mum's side and her old hippy coterie in particular being new age crystal types, faith healers etc.

And i can tell you they were a huge gang of hypochondriacs, the lot of them.

They really were always popping a bach flower remedy, harping on about aconite this and arnica that, and i never go anywhere without my St Johns wort darling.

I won't even start on the psychotherapy courses they all took when they were, without exception, a bunch of emotional screw-ups.