More on parking tickets....

[????]

Sean thinks you're a criminal. Southwark Council is the real criminal/

[SimonM]

"Southwark Council" is not some anonymous clique of mobsters-cum-business men who use all their ill-gotten gains from parking (etc) offences to furnish their caribbean villas with precious antiques. Southwark Council is actually us and raising all that money helps reduce Council taxes etc. The figure quoted of around ?1600 million really is shocking though...it is shocking that people disregard or actively break these laws on such a massive scale and at the same time somehow believe they have been hard done by,...

[mikese22]

SimonM Wrote:

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> "Southwark Council" is not some anonymous clique

> of mobsters-cum-business men who use all their

> ill-gotten gains from parking (etc) offences to

> furnish their caribbean villas with precious

> antiques. Southwark Council is actually us and

> raising all that money helps reduce Council taxes

> etc. The figure quoted of around ?1600 million

> really is shocking though...it is shocking that

> people disregard or actively break these laws on

> such a massive scale and at the same time somehow

> believe they have been done by,...

I totally agree - it always hacks me off when people talk about the council making money from this or or the government from that - and then in the same breath moan about lack or quality of public services or Post Offices closing - you can't have it both ways!

[SeanMacGabhann]

ah but the age-old get-out clause is "they could provide the services if they didn't waste so much money!!" - which is just brilliant as no-one can ever 100% refute it. Even if those people actually ran the council, there would still be waste. it still misses the point tho

as for ???? saying

most of that money is raised from people breaking the law - ergo...

Whereas the second half of the statement is both factually incorrect and not a little whingey

based on what I see every single day - if Southwark council really clamped down on parking offences then they could seriously make a fortune. As soon as I get through a day without several drivers deliberately not giving a shit about their fellow road-users or pedestrians and breaking umpteen laws in the process is when I start being on their side about how they are being victimised... until then however

[RosieH]

Hear hear Sean.

I normally try to be diplomatic on here and see both sides but FFS this really winds me up. You don't want a parking ticket, then don't park illegally. If signs aren't clear you have the right to appeal. They can't fine you and make squillions of pounds that would be better spent on jeremy clarkson dvds if you are parked where you're supposed to be parked.

Is it really any more complicated than that?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cheers RosieH - pint at Kitson for you. If I knew what you looked like....

Now to give Ratpack SOME benefit of the doubt - according to the details he has outlined, this all started because of a ticket he never received, which led to the bailiffs being called in etc. Assuming this is true (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't*) it still means that a likely offence was committed at some point.. unless ratpack is also saying he/she never parks where they shouldn't? It is possible for the council to screw-up completely after all. But is that what happened? Have they targetted someone who committed no offence? If they have then I would suggest they could be sued for more than the fine they tried to impose.

* Although I personally know plenty of people who use this excuse even when they definitely have received a ticket. But please remember they are NOT criminals. OR liars.. no way....

[Jeremy]

Just out of interest... has anyone received tickets when parked in the little lay-bys on Basingdon Way (Denmark Hill estate)? I received a couple a few months back which I am still in the process of contesting, would be interested to hear if anyone has been in a similar situation (please don't bother proclaimimg your smug lack of sympathy!)

[zephyr]

I guess it depends upon how long you are going to be. When I was having chemo last year we would park in Sainsburys and get the bus over the hill. My wife would then go back and get the car and go off and do the normal day to day stuff. When it was time for me to go home we would do the reverse. So long as you don't park for more than 2 hours it isn't a problem.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Martin Lewis is currently preparing a document on parking charges. It might be worth keeping an eye on his website in a month or so: moneysavingexpert.com

[SteveT]

Nutty wrote:-got confused as to which side of the road was residents parking and which was pay and display.

bawdy-nan wrote:-when signs aren't clear and you are trying to obey the rules.

I have misread signs on a few occasions and paid the consequences too, I have also knocked on peoples door to ask which side is legal to park on.

Is it so complicated to produce clear, concise signs, or are councils deliberately making it unclear, to reap the benefits?

When I travel around trying desperately to stay on the 'legal' side of driving, I never see a speed limit anymore, but I sure see plenty of cameras which seem to have replaced the speed signs.

[snorky]

can the council win here ?

Laissez faire parking produces a world of complaints, enforcing paid parking restrictions ditto, littering the streets with more signeage ditto, residents parking ditto- the list is pretty much endless

[Loz]

Walking along Gallery Road yesterday, you could see the purposeful confusion at work. On some parts you must park with wheels on the pavement intermingled with others where you must park completely on the road. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason as to why each bit is designated the way it is, and certainly no reason for the whole road not to be 'wheels on'. The signs showing which bit is which are vague.

Unsurprisingly, the wardens had a field day.

[elipie]

SteveT Wrote:

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> When I travel around trying desperately to stay on

> the 'legal' side of driving, I never see a speed

> limit anymore, but I sure see plenty of cameras

> which seem to have replaced the speed signs.

If a road is lit then pretty sure it is a thirty speed limit unless sign posted otherwise

[SteveT]

Stick the speed limit on all the cameras;-)

[RosieH]

http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm - is this not taught in the old driving lessons anymore?

[Moos]

I thought the parking complainers were complaining when they have been unjustly or unlawfully fined, rather than when they were caught out?

I don't think I understand the acrimony Sean and others are directing at them.

[woodie]

Loz Wrote:

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> Walking along Gallery Road yesterday, you could

> see the purposeful confusion at work. On some

> parts you must park with wheels on the pavement

> intermingled with others where you must park

> completely on the road. There seems to be no

> rhyme nor reason as to why each bit is designated

> the way it is, and certainly no reason for the

> whole road not to be 'wheels on'. The signs

> showing which bit is which are vague.

>

> Unsurprisingly, the wardens had a field day.

yes! they love carters steam fair and events at bueaberry house.

just a quick funny for you, A while ago I parked in Clapham Manor street. When I'd finished my job I came out and pointed my keys at the car. pressed door unlock nothing happened. "Oh no" I thought "mustve left the lights on battery flat".Turned out, no! Id screwed up, parked in residents (with my paid for ticket on display!)had my car towed and an identical car parked in my place.I didnt realise till I spotted a strange hat on the backseat. sheesh.

[zephyr]

SteveT Wrote:

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> Stick the speed limit on all the cameras;-)

Why? The rules about speed limits are quite clear in the Highway code

[SeanMacGabhann]

yowsa - when admonished by moos I have to think about what I've said!

Firstly - if someone has been unlawfully or unjustly fined then I'm all for them fighting it and winning. Solidarity, brothers and sisters and all of that .

But the relentlessness of the threads that keep cropping up with "the council are milking motorists dry!" - not just on the forum but on any talk radio show or most papers is tedious in the extreme. Councils and Private Businesses have adopted (extremely) harsh measure not because of a small number of mistaken motorists but the sheer volume of people "trying it on"

Even this thread which is ostensibly about unjust fines, when examined, appears a bit fishy to me. The technicality of not having received the notice might be sufficient to get the poster off the fine but when asked "so you didn't park illegaly", no response was forthcoming

That's on the specifics. On the more general reason I get so worked up is that, in 20 foot letters, on the wall over there is some big-ass writing. And no-one is reading it. The game has changed... not only is it impossibly to go back to an age when free and easy parking was possible (the usual reasons - limited space, increasing traffic volumes etc) but with petrol getting ever more scarce and expensive (although I suspect we will see the current situation ease and flare up a few more times before the situation really hits home) the dependance on the car has to change at some point. And it will be far easier to plan ahead and adapt slowly then to do what most people seem to be doing which is head-in-the-sand, woe-poor-persecuted-me, and wait until it's too late

Again, for the record - I love driving. Maybe not in London but when I get the chance I love it. I am not, in Louisa's phrase "a greenie". But the ease with which people get so aggrieved when they have done something wrong, blame someo other force (council greed apparently) and seem happy to tell all on a public forum doesn't seem healthy to me.

And it's not, as seanmlow so lovingly put it, about anyone claiming perfection - none of us is. But the difference is surely in the ability to accept ones mistakes and learn from them

[SteveT]

Zephyr wrote:-Why? The rules about speed limits are quite clear in the Highway code.

I know they are clear in the highway code but if you ever drive out on the westway, the speed limit is 30 mph for one and a half a miles and then it is 40mph for a mile or so, then 50mph for a mile and drops to 40mph for a mile all on the same dual carriageway. One has to ask why, when a few years ago it was 70mph all the way, with speed variations on such roads as this, I can only assume it is for harvesting revenue from unwitting drivers. It serves only to complicate driving.

I do not think this particular scenario is covered by the Highway Code.

[SeanMacGabhann]

how do you know the speed limit changes so much SteveT? I thought you didn't see speed limit signs anymore? ;-)

Can you really not think of any other reasons that the speed limit is no longer 70mph along there?

[Loz]

I think you are (maybe purposefully) missing the point there, SeanMac. It's not the point that that the speed limit has dropped, it's just that - like my Gallery Road parking example - the speed changes every mile or two for no real reason.

And it's not, as seanmlow so lovingly put it, about anyone claiming perfection - none of us is. But the difference is surely in the ability to accept ones mistakes and learn from them

If I make a mistake I get fined ?60. All well and good and I have no problem with that. The problem here is that if the council makes a mistake and issues a 'dodgy' parking ticket they are not punished in a similar way. There is no incentive for the council *not* to make mistakes. Parking wardens have no reason not to issue incorrect tickets.

It's like I make a bet with you on the result of tonight Euro match. If I win I get ?60. If I'm wrong we just call the bet off, OK?

There is no independent body that says 'Gallery Road parking is inconsistent. Fix it.'. No one that says to a council, 'the court has said that bay is illegally marked. Stop issuing tickets on it until it is fixed'. Much as I hate to say it, we need an Ofpark.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Loz - good post

I agree with you on the current incentivisation of traffic wardens - that is an area where the balance has gone too far the other way

There should be a check and balance on the wilful issuing of tickets. Not sure about Ofpark as a name tho ;-)

Tess MP has helped people out with this - I wonder if she is reading and has an ideas on what shape that might be (it would reduce her workload as well if she didn't have to keep helping out)

As for the variable parking and speed limits on Gallery Rd and others - I dunno. I'm certainly curious. I don't believe they are instigated as revunue raisers but I'm open to correction based on any facts that can be unearthed

My wider point about the ongoing motorist v whoever remains. I would love if this was an easy case of bullying by "the man" and could side with the victims - but as I've said on others posts and see every day - If I could walk more than 100 yards without seeing a motorist wilfully (not accidentally) playing fast and loose with the laws, to the inconvenience and possibly danger of others then I would find it easier to man the barricades.

[zephyr]

There are a number of reasons why dual carriageways around London have had their speed limits changed. One is certainly safety as they are often going through built up areas or areas with more than the usual number of slip road -(A3 may be a case in point). I understand that variable speed limits have a fairly good effect on traffic congestion. The westway is not a particularly long stretch of road so I would guess that they felt it would be sater and more cost effective to have a permanent variation.

[Loz]

Variable speed limits (like the M25 scheme) have a very good effect on congestion. These are intelligence-driven raising and lowering of the speed limit over huge sections of the M25 in response to traffic levels.

Fixed, varying speed limits over short distances have the opposite effect as the slowing down/speeding up/slowing down of traffic has a major knock on effect. Ever wondered why a busy motorway grinds to a halt for no apparent reason? It can be caused by a single car a mile ahead applying their brakes (and more importantly, their brake lights) momentarily and causing a ripple that travels back through the traffic until the whole lot comes to a temporary halt.