Plans to cut Southeastern services to Charing Cross & Victoria

[Bic Basher]

Personally I can't see a complete loss of service between Victoria and Lewisham, it's more likely the current service will be diverted via Sidcup to Dartford leaving the Bexleyheath line with services to Cannon Street.

[tarafitness]

Response received by email today:

Dear Tara XXXX,

The Government has responded to the petition you signed ? ?Immediately stop plans to cut Southeastern services to Charing Cross & Victoria?.

Government responded:

We are seeking passengers? views on the principle of reducing the choice of London termini to provide a more regular timetable and reliable service. We are not proposing to cut specific services.

The Department for Transport has launched a public consultation to seek passengers? views on their priorities for the train service on the South Eastern network. These will be used by the Department of Transport to specify the service required from the next train operator, which is planned to start in December 2018.

The public consultation seeks views on all aspects of the train service, including the provision of more space for passengers, improvements to customer service, simplifying fares and ticketing, improving access and facilities at stations, priorities for speeding up journeys, and providing additional services.

Question 17 seeks views about whether passengers would support the principle of reducing the choice of London termini served from individual stations to provide a more regular timetable and reliable service. We are not proposing to reduce or change specific services. An example is provided to explain how the concept could potentially operate in practice if passengers supported it.

This question is being asked because passengers have indicated that reducing delays is a priority. Paragraph 4.6 of the consultation document explains that one of the causes of delays is the need for trains to cross complex junctions at key points such as London Bridge and Lewisham, which are operating at close to maximum capability. Reducing the need for trains to cross these junctions, by reducing the number of London termini served from individual stations, would help to reduce delays.

Journeys could also be quicker. It is currently necessary to add in waiting times at stations to timetable moves across these junctions and these could be reduced or eliminated if services ran to a single London termini.

In the peak periods, the majority of passengers change at London Bridge, although a significant number do continue through to Cannon Street, Waterloo East, and Charing Cross. We know that these passengers value a choice of London stations.

We are therefore seeking passengers? views on the principle of reducing the choice of London termini to provide a more regular timetable and reliable service.

In answering this question, it is important to consider the many new journey choices for passengers that will result from the completion of the Thameslink programme and the opening of the Elizabeth line. For example, by 2019, passengers from many South Eastern stations will be able to travel via Abbey Wood or Woolwich for fast and regular onward connections to Canary Wharf and central London. Many more passengers will change at London Bridge to join Thameslink trains that run every five minutes between London Bridge-Blackfriars-City Thameslink-Farringdon-St. Pancras.

On the Bexleyheath line the number of passengers from intermediate stations between Dartford and Lewisham and who travel beyond Lewisham towards Victoria is relatively small when compared with those travelling on much faster trains to London Bridge. In the future some passenger from the outer stations on this route will travel via Abbey Wood and the Elizabeth line, or change at London Bridge for Thameslink onward connections. Overall all passengers will benefit from more reliable journeys and many will benefit from faster journey times.

The public consultation will end on 23 May 2017, after which the Department for Transport will carefully analyse each response. The conclusions will be published in the Autumn in a Stakeholder Response document.

It is important to note that there would need to be a separate public consultation by the next train operator before any significant timetable changes were introduced, and this would include reducing the choice of London termini served from stations on the South Eastern network.

Department for Transport

Click this link to view the response online: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/190894?reveal_response=yes

The Petitions Committee will take a look at this petition and its response. They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.

The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: https://petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee

Thanks,

The Petitions team

UK Government and Parliament

I guess this is the crunch paragraph?

On the Bexleyheath line the number of passengers from intermediate stations between Dartford and Lewisham and who travel beyond Lewisham towards Victoria is relatively small when compared with those travelling on much faster trains to London Bridge. In the future some passenger from the outer stations on this route will travel via Abbey Wood and the Elizabeth line, or change at London Bridge for Thameslink onward connections. Overall all passengers will benefit from more reliable journeys and many will benefit from faster journey times.

Tara

[leyudme]

So implication of this is that services between Lewisham and Victoria (inc Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Nunhead) would be cut to facilitate less congestion through the (admittedly problematic) Lewisham junction?

Would be pretty damaging for commuters from SE15/22 to West End and Westminster where other choices are not great during rush hour - Renata will you/Florence/others be responding?

[alex_b]

Provided the Jubilee line is running properly it is still quicker to go Peckham Rye -> Canada Water/London Bridge -> Westminster/Green Park/Bond Street than going into Victoria and then onto the Victoria Line or District Line. I would really miss the choice though.

I imagine for Denmark Hill and Nunhead it would mean a much bigger hit to services.

[Steviedulwich]

No thats not what the implication is of this at all. What is being considered is concentrating services from certain line into one terminal so for example north kent lines into Cannon Street. There is no suggestion that the services from Victoria would be withdrawn but it may be that they are diverted to a different destination...each terminal gets the same amount of trains, and each route get the same amount but they are concentrated on one terminal. The Denmark Hill trains for example could be diverted via the Catford loop. Im not defending SE trains or the consultation, SE trains are dreadful and the consultation lack any real ambition for big improvements to make enhance the low level of service in SE London. I would like to see substantial infrastructure upgrades, starting with a grade separated junction at Herne Hill which would allow for more West Dulwich-Victoria Trains and more Tulse Hill-Thames link trains.

As I say I am not defending them but I have read this consultation and there is no suggestion whatsoever in it that services to Victoria from Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye are to be withdrawn.

[Renata Hamvas]

I have done some more digging on this. It does appear that this is an exercise seeking to appease Kent train commuters by giving them faster train links into London. The proposed method does appear to be to reduce the number of destinations served from Lewisham by removing Victoria and Charing Cross as destinations and rerouting trains to Cannon Street. This would mean that, following on from the loss of the Victoria to London Bridge service and success in the battle for improvements to the Dartford to Victoria service (via Nunhead, Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye); this service is now under threat.:( The threat has been apparent in responses to the on-line petition, and in the discussions I've had with Southeastern. Please read the extract from petition response below below (also posed above so it save scanning through previous posts!):-

We are therefore seeking passengers? views on the principle of reducing the choice of London termini to provide a more regular timetable and reliable service.

In answering this question, it is important to consider the many new journey choices for passengers that will result from the completion of the Thameslink programme and the opening of the Elizabeth line. For example, by 2019, passengers from many South Eastern stations will be able to travel via Abbey Wood or Woolwich for fast and regular onward connections to Canary Wharf and central London. Many more passengers will change at London Bridge to join Thameslink trains that run every five minutes between London Bridge-Blackfriars-City Thameslink-Farringdon-St. Pancras.

On the Bexleyheath line the number of passengers from intermediate stations between Dartford and Lewisham and who travel beyond Lewisham towards Victoria is relatively small when compared with those travelling on much faster trains to London Bridge. In the future some passenger from the outer stations on this route will travel via Abbey Wood and the Elizabeth line, or change at London Bridge for Thameslink onward connections. Overall all passengers will benefit from more reliable journeys and many will benefit from faster journey times.

The consultation on this closes on the 30th June (Friday). Please, if you haven't already done so respond to it and share this information with others. The key question is number 17, we don't want a reduction in the number of terminal stations. The loss of this service would affect thousands of people. It also means that if there is trouble with the train service (as happened today) the trains can't be rerouted elsewhere. This morning Thameslink trains were being re-routed to Victoria because of a broken down train

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-south-eastern-rail-services

Thanks Renata

[LouiseC]

Thanks for sharing Renata- this is a disgrace, especially for Nunhead residents, whose service will affectively be cut by half and the other half of their service (Thameslink) cannot take the overspill of these passengers as the trains are already dangerously packed at peak hour as well as being shockingly unreliable. I really don't know how this can be justified??

[jimmyraj]

This is ludicrous suggestion. The Dartford service is packed out each day from Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill. Without those services, we will loose any link into the west side of central London from the area. The framing of that paragraph would indicate that there is no attention being paid to the impact on zone 2/3 commuters - and this is entirely an exercise in pleasing the Tory-voting suburban commuters.

There has been no obvious literature at the stations pointing to this consultation - probably because there is no coherent collaboration between Southern and SouthEastern.

Renata - is there anything that you can do to contact the Mayor's office to stimulate any noise on this around the closing of the consultation? This whole thing stinks of a political exercise by the DfT

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Jimmy,

I agree totally with your sentiments. Yes, it appears that the users from the Southwark stations are considered insignificant in this consultation exercise. It's all about the Kent commuters.

I have been doing what I can about this. I have contacted Deputy Mayor Val Shawcross and also MP Harriet Harman about this. I've proposed a motion to July's full Council Assembly on this. If passed, a letter will go from Southwark to the Department for Transport on this.

Here is the motion:-

1.???????Council Assembly recognises the importance of public transport for residents

in Southwark and that the Southeastern line to London Victoria is used by thousands

of passengers from Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill stations. It links south

East London and Kent to the DLR and Overground as well as the tube network at

Victoria and provides public transport to Kings College and the Maudsley Hospitals.

?

2.???????Council Assembly notes that after much lobbying (including 2012 motion

agreed by this chamber), this service was extended to a full Monday to Sunday

service including evenings. Residents had already lost the Victoria to London Bridge

service when the Overground service via Peckham Rye started and extension to this

service was much needed. There has already, therefore been a net loss in service to

Victoria on Monday to Saturday peak times of two trains per hour.

?

3. Council Assembly is deeply concerned by the recent Department for Transport

consultation seeking passengers? views on the principle of reducing the choice of

London termini to provide a more regular timetable and reliable service.?This has

arisen to appease the Kent commuters who want a faster service into London. The

proposal is to rationalise the services via Lewisham so they go to London Bridge or

Cannon Street only and not to Victoria, thereby cancelling the service via Southwark

to Victoria. As well as the loss of the service, this means, that when there are

problems or engineering works on the Thameslink line, there won?t be the option of

rerouting services into Victoria as happens at present.

4.???????Council Assembly accepts that the Lewisham train junction is a busy one.

Therefore, if rationalisation of services though this junction is deemed necessary,

alternative rerouting to the south of Lewisham would need good, frequent

connections at Lewisham and extra train services, ie a return to 4tph through

Southwark, as our residents also use the service southbound towards Dartford for

work and school.

5.???????Council Assembly find it unacceptable that the recent consultation has been

skewed towards the longer distance commuters. This consultation was not even

advertised at our stations. We believe the current system provides a poor outcome

for our residents and that TFL should take on the responsibility for the running of

this and other south east London rail services to enable our residents to have a

properly integrated transport system.

If you haven't already done so, please respond to the consultation that closes tonight!

Thanks

Renata

[DulwichLondoner]

Why do I get the feeling that these "consultations", which so few people ever learn about, are just a way to rubberstamp decisions which have already been taken?

[KidKruger]

Probably because that's exactly what they are !

Take the Sylvester Rd sorting office 'consultation' for example.

[JohnL]

It's because of this priority given to outside of London that we all wanted London services run by TFL.

But a certain minister stopped that - maybe now the government is weaker we can push again.

[tarafitness]

I've completed the online form, for all the good it will do. It asked how I'd like to be contacted, but didn't give me the opportunity to leave any details. Seems an exercise in futility. I think it's absolutely disgraceful the way they're trying to sneak this through.

I work in Victoria, so I'm going to be hugely affected by this, but what about all the people who rely on this service to get to King's College Hospital??

[Bic Basher]

GTR/Southern's has worked to the extent that Forest Hill/HOP will continue to be served by trains to East Croydon.