ED is becoming less diverse as a result of recent Demog. changes (Lounged)

[SeanMacGabhann]

ed-Pete - I think you are right about the fact there is an assumption. But's one I would agree with.

Having lived in homogenous, non-diverse areas of several types it is stultefying. And people remain inward-looking and hostile to "outsiders"

A diverse population breeds energy, understanding, learning, cuisine, culture - amongt other things.

I like those things...

[*Bob*]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having lived in homogenous, non-diverse areas of

> several types it is stultefying. And people remain

> inward-looking and hostile to "outsiders"

So you've been to Norfolk as well then?

[lozzyloz]

Growing up in Westbourne Park, most of the residents were Afro Caribbean. As the area became more gentrified a lot (not all) took advantage of a) The right to buy their council properties at a substantial discount and b) The right to sell, to (what many perceived at the time to be YUPPIES) and make a nice killing and then move further out of London with the tidy profits. Some had already planned to retire "back home" and this simply made it cushier. Others rented out their nicely located properties and also moved further out of town. BUT lots of White families also did the same thing. The area still remains largely Afro Caribbean and NOBODY has been displaced by gentrification except perhaps the guys dealing on All Saints Rd. This use of the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to discuss shifting demographics sends shivers down my spine. I'm from a multi ethnic background and I've dealt with my fair share of ignorant rascist abuse but I've also been picked out on the basis of being "too working class" or "not working class enough" etc. ED is not seeing a massive surge of "Black Flight" and the area remains very diverse. Has nobody noticed the Mosque on Northcross Rd and the Halal butchers next door? I think there's also a Hindu temple off LL. Please, if we're going to have a discussion about diversity in the area, have a sense of proportion about it instead of coming up with phrases lifted straight of the pages of the Mirror and co.

[James]

God does everything always have to be blamed on racism? It is a natural fact of life that people of all races tend to stick together in communities. It's also a fact of life that these communities get displaced over time. Nobody is forcing black people to move out - they are probably doing it because they can get more for their money elsewhere AND be near family and friends. What's wrong with that?

If someone was to bemoan the fact that lots of white people left Peckham after the war they would probably be called racist. Yet we can happily talk about black people leaving East Dulwich as if white people/racism is somehow responsible. Double standards or what?

[blinder999]

> A diverse population breeds energy, understanding,

> learning, cuisine, culture - amongt other things.

>

> I like those things...

yes, me too

[ed_pete]

Sean - I am sure there are many less diverse countries in the world that would lay claim to "energy, understanding, learning, cuisine, culture". Besides, why do we equate diversity with race. Diversity in my book also means age, sexual orientation, wealth, political leaning etc.

[blinder999]

Besides, why do we equate diversity

> with race. Diversity in my book also means age,

> sexual orientation, wealth, political leaning etc.

good point - more reasons to love South London

[SeanMacGabhann]

Good points ed_pete but I think most people take the meaning of diverse to be race so was operating on those lines. But you are spot on about teh other factors. And so I think ED is still in good shape taking those into account too

As for other countries laying claim to those attributes - I don't know. It's not an exhaustive list anyway but examples would be intersting.

China for example could lay claim to learning, cuisine and energy. But it is inward looking and doesn't do "understanding" very well. Especially if you disagree with it - By opening up their culture to diverse elements that will become a thing of history

[downsouth]

ed_pete

> with race. Diversity in my book also means age,

> sexual orientation, wealth, political leaning etc.

I'm a fan of diversity with a small 'd'. It means things are always evolving and ideas cross polinating. For me it also means places feel safer. That is a personal opinion but I would rather somewhere that had a broad brush of people from all the different things you mention and race/culture/nationality would be included.

[lozzyloz]

Quite right ed_pete, diversity certainly is much wider than race. I think the thread got slightly "coloured" by G Lux's post. The point is that the demographic ebb and flow of the ED populace has never stood still and thankfully never will otherwise I'd be living and working from the basement of some Victorian Doctor's house. I'm sure if Maurice got his way and Camberwell became more gentrified then some would complain about the loss of the areas colourful tramps and nutters.

[ed_pete]

A debate on the merits of diversification is veering off-topic and lounge bound, so I'll leave it there.

[benmorg]

you can see at a glance how ethnically diverse Southwark is on these maps: http://www.guardian.co.uk/graphic/0,5812,1395103,00.html

It's interesting that Dulwich (though not ED) appears as a white island within predominantly diverse and largely black south London. A lot of people claim to love the diversity of East Dulwich and other parts of south London but house prices tell a different story: the whitest bits of central London are the most expensive and the blackest bits are cheapest. As East Dulwich rises in price and desirability it is likely to become whiter and whiter. See also Richmond on the maps - resolutely white and extremely expensive.

[blinder999]

"A lot of people claim to love the diversity of East Dulwich and other parts of south London but house prices tell a different story: the whitest bits of central London are the most expensive and the blackest bits are cheapest. "

These two facts are not related. Just because house prices are higher in Richmond or wherever (and therefore more desirable to some), it does not follow that everyone would like to live there. I don't want to live there.

[mockney piers]

Interesting that Southern Southwark is 2-3% irish on that map, yet the forum must be knocking on 15-20%

Is it an ancestral penchant for the written word, or an ethnic affinity with organising drinks or an innate neighbourly nosiness or something else?

[Brendan]

Perhaps a genetic penchant for conversation over work. I feel I must have inherited this from my mother?s side as the non-Irish side of my family are all philosophical studious sorts.

[david_carnell]

kford Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jerk Rock closed because it was rubbish, by the

> way. If it was a decent ethnic restaurant, I'm

> sure it would've survived.

I think kford has the right end of the stick here. Currently, "ethnic" food has never been so popular with people clammering to find the next exciting regional cuisine that will be "big". The diversity of LL is exemplified by the melange of restaurants featuring food from all over the world - indian, bangladeshi, japanese, chinese, thai etc etc. One, frankly sub-standard, Caribbean restaurant closing is indicative of nothing more than that. If there really was somesort of non-white flight taking place would these not be the first to go?

The number of wealthy ethnic miniorities has never been higher so rising house prices should not necessarily discriminate against non-white residents.

As an aside, I'm sure we'd all welcome decent members of society into the community regardless of demographic. Perhaps the question is really: "Is ED becoming a more, or less, pleasant place to live given the current demographic shift?" I can't really comment as a relative newcomer (and being one of the young, white, middle-class culprits I'd be biased ;-))but I'd be interested in others opinions.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

This thread is brilliant! I've learnt so much;

1. Diversity is only applicable between the white and black population, everyone else is the same.

2. If you take away their shops, black people will move back to Peckham (don't let the good folk of Beckenham and Eltham know this).

3. The black population should be discouraged from following the same migratory patterns as other Londoners, because they give our neighbourhood a "gritty urban" feel and scare off the chattering classes.

4. East Dulwich used to be so much better when; everyone knew each others name, the absence of punters meant the Landlord would chat to you for hours, you could by big panes of glass on Lordship Lane.......Blah,Blah,Blah,Blah,Blah.

Have I missed anything?

[Nero]

I think there is still diversity around, especially away from the more expensive bits of the area. My next door neighbour is New Yorkian Jewish, my other is Irish, the three doors down family is mixed-race and the family next to that is Polish Roma. But I don't wake up every day joyous in the knowledge I am in my own little diversity paradise. I don't think it makes a jot of difference. Please someone tell me why, really why, it is sooooooooooo important? If people are well-behaved, respectful, and take care of their property and themselves, then why should it matter if they are gay/black/blind/amputee on a day to day basis? Is it jsut to make us feel all fuzzy and 'right'? Do we really culturally exchange when we say hello to our neighbours who are different from us? I don't think so. It's a big red herring.* Nero

* This is neither colourist nor speciesist.

[Maurice]

The demos changed enough to make an online Forum quite popular.

[BARA]

The 'diversity' of East Dulwich is generated in part by those who have purchased housing here - which tends to be more expensive than Forest Hill and Sydenham. For the most part newcomers come with the salaries to attract the larger mortgages and who expect a standard of shop which 10 years ago would only have been found in Dulwich Village/Blackheath/some parts of Clapham. Us 'oldies' who have either grown up in the area, or purchased property when East Dulwich was 'down market' are a mixed bag- we are to some extent income poor but asset rich. My family could not afford to shop in some of the recent 'high street'/ North Cross Road type establishments. On the other hand, ED has gone from being 'bed sit land' to rented flats and houses which are attracting a variety of classes/cultures/ethnic backgrounds/income levels which add to the regeneration of East Dulwich. As a residents' association, BARA receives a grant from Southwark Council to provide a meeting place for Southwark Council Tenants and Leaseholders, and to hold events relating to improving housing/living/environment/quality of life of these residents. As BARA is opened to all residents- regardless of tenure, we have a mixture of ages/ethnic backgrounds/income/owner occupiers/social housing/ private tenants.

Their interest in joining us varies from wanting to integrate into a new area, to improve community relations and social cohesion and to improve the local environment.

The diversity of ED comes from the acceptance (to the most part) of all social, cultural and ethnic backgrounds. An American colleague complimented us on how well 'strangers' are accepted within the local community and that we were more hospitable/friendlier than most of her fellow Americans. The East Dulwich Community Centre (where BARA is based) has seen over the past 2 years more organisations being developed reflecting the diversity of the area - The Afro Caribbean Elders Group, The Southwark Muslim organisations, A Bangladeshi Group, and the Milan Association which embraces all cultures.

None of my children live in ED - they cannot afford either the rental rates of a property - or to purchase a family home, they now live in Orpington, Sussex and Essex where a 3 bed terrace house can still be purchased under ?195,000. I would think those who are moving out of the area are moving for economic reasons and not really by choice.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

My next door neighbour is New Yorkian Jewish, my other is Irish, the three doors down family is mixed-race and the family next to that is Polish Roma. But I don't wake up every day joyous in the knowledge I am in my own little diversity paradise.

I bet you do, just a little....

I, on the other hand, have the misfortune of having English (not even Celtic) neighbours on both sides and am often too embarrassed to introduce my friends to them.

[SeanMacGabhann]

* edited while I figure out what sounded dodgy *

[david_carnell]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My next door neighbour is New Yorkian Jewish, my

> other is Irish, the three doors down family is

> mixed-race and the family next to that is Polish

> Roma. But I don't wake up every day joyous in the

> knowledge I am in my own little diversity

> paradise.

>

> I bet you do, just a little....

> I, on the other hand, have the misfortune of

> having English (not even Celtic) neighbours on

> both sides and am often too embarrassed to

> introduce my friends to them.

>:D<

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Have you been drinking Sean?

[Nero]

So, does being English (by which I think you mean white) necessarily mean being shaming? What do you mean by it? I mentioned my neighbours' ethnicity just to show how diverse the area was, but attached no values to them. You, au contraire, did the opposite. If you are 'English' yourself, ask yourself why you felt the need to say it. It says a lot about you. And why is 'Celtic' - itself a debatable adjective - deemed to be somehow better than non-Celtic, for that is what comes across in the way you phrase your sentences. And for the record, I simply don't thank/curse the Lord/whatever for being lucky/unlucky enough to live with the neighbours I have. It doesn't bother me. If they start revving their car engines or rowing in teh street, then it does, in whatever language they choose to do it. Nero