Since when did getting into secondary school become an X-Factor audition?

[Mrs TP]

How come some secondary schools are allowed to run x-factor type music auditions to allow a %age of their places to go pupils with exceptional musical ability regardless of where they live but they are not similarly allowed to select on academic ability?

[Bellenden Belle]

Certain schools have always had special status in regards to the musical provision they provide.

Just as some grammar schools select on academic ability.

This is a million miles away from x-factor auditions, and is merely giving children who may have musical ability access to teachers with particular skills in that area.

[Renata Hamvas]

The music exams for secondaries specialising in music usually test musicality by ability to distinguish small differences in notes, pitch etc. These are designed that children do not get in becuase parents have paid for lots of lessons, but to identify children with real muscial talent. I know of one ED boy who got into an oversubscribed school on music who hadn't had a music lesson in his life. Schools do specialise in different subjects, eg Harris Girls specialise in enterprise, St Thomas the Apostle in maths and Kingsdale, sport, music and maths.

Renata

[Mrs TP]

So a child with above average musical ability has the opportunity to get into a particular state school regardless of where they live to access 'teachers with particular skills in that area'.

However, a child with above average academic abilities has no chance of gaining entry to a particular state school to take advantage of the teaching there if they do not fall within the distance criteria / lottery banding.

Either state schools are selective or they are not - it seems wholly unjust that they are allowed to select in one subject area.

[westof]

Yes, they really aren't X-Factor type auditions (unless you are referring to the large numbers applying & the processing that involves) just quite unscary aptitude tests.

And I thought some non-Grammar (Foundation?) schools were allowed to select a percentage on academic ability - isn't that what schools like Graveny & Burntwood do?. Maybe just up to the school what they choose to select their allowed percentage on?

[Otta]

Are the schools in question academies? I thought they tended to specialise in something, be it languages, music. Ict. I see no problem with it, as it allows a talented child to go somewhere that would nurture their talent. Otherwise it would only be for those who could afford private education.

[rachel83]

Haberdasher's in New Cross and Kingsdale both do music scholarships, I am not sure if they are academies or not.

It is nothing like the X-Factor. The test is a multiple choice written test conducted in complete silence with just a room full of kids at desks with their answer sheets and the test is played on a CD.

Renata is right that kids that have not had any formal music lessons before may apply for the test and may well pass. At the audition, they can choose to sing, and if successful, will receive free or heavily subsidised music lessons.

[westof]

Mrs TP Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So a child with above average musical ability has

> the opportunity to get into a particular state

> school regardless of where they live to access

> 'teachers with particular skills in that area'.

>

> However, a child with above average academic

> abilities has no chance of gaining entry to a

> particular state school to take advantage of the

> teaching there if they do not fall within the

> distance criteria / lottery banding.

>

>

You do have point here - it's ridiculous that every school's over-subscription can be different from every other, and of course leads to children who fall through the gaps through the fact of their location.

But I'm not sure about your second paragraph - I thought that you could apply for academically selective places at (for instance) Graveney, Burntwood and indeed the Grammar Schools in distant Sutton, however far away you lived from them?

[Renata Hamvas]

In all these schools, it's only a small number that are selected by their ability in a particular field eg Music. For most schools, they select on distance, and this is how the majority of places for a secondary will be allocated. There are some exceptions to this eg Kingsdale , which selects by randon allocation (ie lottery) and church schools (Catholic or C of E in Southwark) where religious affiliation of the child/family is the main criterium for obtaining a place. If yur child is highly gifted academically, if you wish, you can apply to the out of borough grammar schools. I would check however, as many of them now do their entrance exams prior to the CAF form deadline, in order to notify parents whether the child is likely to be offered a place before they fill in the form. The closest ones to Southwark are probably in Sutton, but there are Southwark children going as far as Dartford, Kent. I would note, however that most secondary schools have setting, this means that children work with others of a similar academic ability to themselves. All southwark schools are comprehensives, which means that they provide and cater for children with a wide range of abilites and talents. Be aware that academies and voluntary aided (church) schools set their own admissions criteria and therefore you need to check eligibility prior to submitting your form.

Renata

[new mother]

Completely agree with op that one of the many failings of our system is lack of recognition of academic children. It beggars belief that you can be rewarded for everything save being clever (or quite clever and hard working) in many schools.

[BB100]

rachel83 Wrote:

------------------------------------------------------->

> It is nothing like the X-Factor. The test is a

> multiple choice written test conducted in complete

> silence with just a room full of kids at desks

> with their answer sheets and the test is played on

> a CD.

That is just the first stage. If they get through to seeing Simon..sorry I mean the second stage where you have to play your chosen instrument in front of a panel and then there are the tears that follow when they don't get in, sounds very familiar to me.

> Renata is right that kids that have not had any

> formal music lessons before may apply for the test

> and may well pass. At the audition, they can

> choose to sing, and if successful, will receive

> free or heavily subsidised music lessons.

May possibly be the case for Kingsdale but I don't know any Aske's child who got in on music scholarship without prior lessons, even singing lessons. Does anyone?

And yes the Grammar schools in Sutton are open to everyone where ever you live. One of my children goes to a grammar in Sutton - it's a 40 minute journey door to door. My child wasn't tutored and didn't go to a private primary so it is possible to get in purely on academic ability and a state primary ed.

[prickle]

Not sure if it is quite XFactor but must say there was more than a hint of desperation (particularly amongst the parents) when my child went through this a few years ago. Surely something wrong with the education system when children are forced to go through these hoops - in the remote hope that they might get into an otherwise inaccessible school.

Prendergast is another culprit.

[malleymoo]

Got to agree with BB100 the audition stage at Aske's was a bit of a shock for my daughter.

The liteature did not mention there could be 5 people sitting on the panel. She felt as she walked in there was a sense of them being really unfriendly- one yawned as she walked into the room and another frowned from begining to end.

My daughter felt ridicoulously nervous and knew straight away she had blown it as she heard her voice wobble all over the place. She cried the whole way home as she felt she had let herself down.

This was in marked contrast to the audition process at another school where there were 2 membes of staff who attempted to put her at ease and she felt relaxed and did well-( and was later offered a music place).Even if she hadn't been offered it she had come away from the experience feeling she had done all she could and was quite bouyed up by the experience.

I do wonder if having a panel like the one at Aske's does mean that children with limited musical experience/lessons/performance experience, like my daughter, would have found it difficult and this may be why many children who are offered a scholorship at Aske's have more expereince. I think at the very least they could have let parents know how big the panel was so they could prepare their child !

[BB100]

...and another thing. How come a group of children from just one primary school who had been coached for the tests by one music teacher all got into Askes together a couple of years ago, if it's on natural talent?

[Renata Hamvas]

I do know an ED child who is in Aske's after not having any music lessons whatsoever and being accepted after singing at the audition, so it can be done!

Renata

[Coach Beth]

Surely all children - whether they are academically or musically gifted are not should be able to have a decent education? Also, I thought the banding system meanst that academically able children would be identified and would be more likely to get into a school of their choice? I also think the numbers going through on music are small at most schools - for example Peckham Academy has a performing arts specially and I believe that just 20 pupils on their intake come from special application.

I do think that if we are going down the route of certain schools having certain specialities like sport, music and art then it would be daft if children who are good at those specalities and want to pursue careers in them aren't able to actually get in due to distance and so on. And the question about primary music education and coaching - perhaps the children weren't coached but perhaps children from that school just have an excellent music teacher! I've been very pleased that the teacher at my son's school (not the school mentioned above I think!) has been teaching all the children to read music from year 3, he has set up a band and a choir and my child in year 2 listening to Brahams! The teacher isn't doing it to coach the kids but given them a decent music education at primary school - which again all children should have. Anyway, that is my 2 pennies - and since I don't have to worry about my son going to secondary school for a good few years, it's probably better to leave the debate to folks who are in the thick of the process right now! Best of luck everyone!

[Dorothy]

Couldn't agree more with you Mrs TP. There is no "system" and no proper range of provision in the secondary schools in this Borough. Poor kids, I feel sorry for them.

[intexasatthe moment]

Also, I thought the banding system meanst that academically able children would be identified and would be more likely to get into a school of their choice?

But not if you're child is just average - in which case you'll need to live closer to the school in order to stand a chance of getting in than if you're academically able .

[westof]

As I understand it, the banding system isn't in place to give academically able children more choice of schools, but rather to allow schools to take in a full range of children with a normal distribution of abilities - I'm in favour of it because I want my child to be educated in an environment like this. But it might actually make it harder for an individual child to get the school of their choice if they happen to be in a 'popular' band that year.

I agree about the huge effect a single music teacher can have - even in just inspiring children to go for a music scholarship when they might never have considered it. (I'm so glad we didn't do the one at Aske's though, the 'unscary' and positive experience I described was at Kingsdale).

The OP and new mother are quite wrong to say that the system doesn't recognise academic children - a)there are plenty of schools where that is the specific selection criteria, and b)academic & hardworking children are also nurtured & valued in schools that don't select academically. Particularly nonsensical to suggest that you can be rewarded for everything except being clever & hardworking - where on earth do you get that idea?

However the mish-mash of selection processes & specialisms is a complete nonsense overall, I agree with prickle that the system is wrong if it ends up with us forcing children through these hoops just to get a place at a school.

[westof]

(I've just realised that I probably do agree with the basic premise: "Since when did getting into secondary school become an X-Factor audition?" even though the rest of the OP makes no sense to me)

[Dorothy]

No, Coach Beth, the banding system definitely does not work like that - if it did we would be living in a sort of pseudo-grammar system.

[BB100]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do know an ED child who is in Aske's after not

> having any music lessons whatsoever and being

> accepted after singing at the audition, so it can

> be done!

> Renata

But the fact that the news has reached you and you are telling us about it demonstrates how remarkable a feat it is.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's not that remarkable. My daughter sat the test at Askes and auditioned at Prendergast where she was accepted.

She doesn't read a note of music and her audition piece was her own composition on an African drum that we borrowed.

[intexasatthe moment]

Dorothy - but if the brightest/most academically succesful are in the minority then presumably ,in order to fill the higher bands the school would have to cast their net further afield than when filling the middle of the range bands for which presumably there are more candidates ?

So wouldn't this mean that children qualifying for the higher bands have a greater chance of getting in to the school of their choice - because they don't have to live so close as the children who are average and therefore more numerous and therefore have greater competition ?

Although .... the banding system the Harris Academies use is "referenced to the national distribution of ability " so presumably that means if a particular cohort contained a high percentage of very able children , a higher number than the "national distribution " then they'd find it harder to get a place ?

I do think banding is complicated and not the neat divvying up of a group of applicants that it appears to be .

[EDmummy]

Apart from the oddness of the awarding of music scholarships at Kingsdale, they do award them on the basis of a bell curve. Majority of students are distributed in the middle with the highest and lowest awarded at 4%.