Wearing Poppies - A serious question

[HAL9000]

silverfox Wrote:

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> white poppy - Do they exist in nature?

I've seen many different coloured poppy flowers - including white - in and around Afghanistan. Some species have blue pollen.

[silverfox]

Thank you. That's interesting.

However the choice of a white poppy to signify, basically:

"I'm a youngster who comes from a spoilt generation and haven't a clue what earlier generations sacrificed for my right to talk nonsense..."

Seems silly to me

[Huguenot]

No idea what you're getting cross about DaveR, I was responding to SJ's report that Jon Snow was complaining about wearing one outside of Sunday being a recent thing. SJ didn't mention anything about opprobrium being a new thing, so I didn't refer to it.

I don't have to either ignore it or fail to understand it - SJ didn't mention it.

As for your assertion about being able to share the sentiments about Remembrance Sunday, I agree with it. So what's your beef you silly boy? I was merely pointing out that if you go against the flow with something people feel passionately about you're going to attract attention from pointlessly angry people looking for a fight like your good self.

That aside, BB100 are you now arguing that children shouldn't wear poppies because they're a weapon?

I'm sure if he is as gentlemanly and sensitive as you describe, he will recognise that this is a time when he should put his own ego to one side in respect to the sensitivities and sacrifices of others.

That would be the honorable thing to do, and he will be the better man for it. Not doing so seems unnecessary and petulant.

[Otta]

What I, personally, dislike is the habit of wearing white poppies as representing a protest against the red poppy's "glorification of war". This is a total misunderstanding - the red poppy is a symbol of remembrance to acknowledge the suffering and pain of war.

If that were the case, then I would agree with you. However, I had always thought the white poppy just represented pacifism, which ios totally fair enough, not against the red poppies.

Personally, I'd wear both, the red to show respect for those who gave their lives (on both sides of any war), and the white to show that I wish there were no wars.

[BB100]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> That aside, BB100 are you now arguing that

> children shouldn't wear poppies because they're a

> weapon?

>

> I'm sure if he is as gentlemanly and sensitive as

> you describe, he will recognise that this is a

> time when he should put his own ego to one side in

> respect to the sensitivities and sacrifices of

> others. That would be the honorable thing to do, and he

> will be the better man for it. Not doing so seems

> unnecessary and petulant.

No, Huguenot I'm not arguing that they can be used as a weapon - I'm merely illustrating how wearing one doesn't suddenly change someone into a responsible citizen. Wearing one without having the sentiments it holds is actually disrespectful, don't you think?

It's not about ego or a whim. It's about making a personal decision and the right to make that decision. No one has the right to impose their values and beliefs on others. My nephew is not insensitive to other people's feelings and is respectful and wouldn't go talking or walking during the silence, however what about respect for his beliefs and views? It works both ways. It is not my nephew that is attracting attention to himself but the school creating an unnecessary atmosphere of fear of not wearing one. We should surely learn lessons from history as to how to treat others who take different views from our own - with respect not punishment.

Just to note: If you check the British Legion website you will find that the purpose of wearing a poppy was originally to remember the dead but also now represents an outward show that you are supporting British Troops. Also the white poppy was a symbol of peace and was introduced by the women's guild in the 1930's as a challenge to on-going war but not to oppose the red poppy. But the British Legion felt it diverted funds away from the red poppy collection. You can wear a purple one as well to remember animals who die in the war.

[zeban]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> No idea what you're getting cross about DaveR, I

> was responding to SJ's report that Jon Snow was

> complaining about wearing one outside of Sunday

> being a recent thing. SJ didn't mention anything

> about opprobrium being a new thing, so I didn't

> refer to it.

>

> I don't have to either ignore it or fail to

> understand it - SJ didn't mention it.

>

> As for your assertion about being able to share

> the sentiments about Remembrance Sunday, I agree

> with it. So what's your beef you silly boy? I was

> merely pointing out that if you go against the

> flow with something people feel passionately about

> you're going to attract attention from pointlessly

> angry people looking for a fight like your good

> self.

>

> That aside, BB100 are you now arguing that

> children shouldn't wear poppies because they're a

> weapon?

>

> I'm sure if he is as gentlemanly and sensitive as

> you describe, he will recognise that this is a

> time when he should put his own ego to one side in

> respect to the sensitivities and sacrifices of

> others.

>

> That would be the honorable thing to do, and he

> will be the better man for it. Not doing so seems

> unnecessary and petulant.

I'm with Huguenot 100%

[Loz]

> You can wear a purple one as well to remember animals who die in the war.

Good grief. Can I wear a brown and green poppy to remember the trees and shrubbery that were cleared during the war? A grey poppy to sympathise with the buildings?

The world - well, it's people - never ceases to amaze me.

[Huguenot]

BB100, it seems to me that you're now researching more information to support a rejection of the poppy appeal.

It feels like a post rationalisation - almost as if you've decided to reject the poppy first, and then try and justify it afterwards.

I'm wondering whether the initial objection was anti-authority (You CAN'T tell me what to do!!!), and all this stuff about not supporting the poppy appeal on behalf of the armed forces and their families came afterwards?

It seems petty and trite anyway. The employees of the armed forces do not create wars or benefit from them. The get paid peanuts, suffer tremendously, and then get dumped afterwards.

Punishing them further with hoity-toity teenage disrespect is just rubbish.

[Huguenot]

On the observation that a poppy does not change people into respectable citizens, that misses the point.

We're the product of millions of experiences throughout our lives, the lessons we learn, the conclusions we draw and the actions we commit to.

The poppy appeal sits into the box marked 'respect and empathy for others'. Your nephew seems determined to reject the contents of this educational experience in favour of the box marked 'poorly thought out self-indulgent teenage posturing makes me feel important'.

Adults should really be making the effort to gently coax him in a more responsible direction rather than indulging his ego.

[StraferJack]

I thought this letter from a number of war veterans

last year

sums up how many people feel about the current state of play

[Huguenot]

I'd argue that that letter demonstrates just how effective the poppy appeal is in generating debate around the virtues and penalties of armed conflict.

Had the poppy appeal never been made, it's unlikely those chaps would have ever got their opinion heard.

They will also have had the opportunity to take advantage of the Royal British Legion's support.

[StraferJack]

You would argue, but it would be a poor one

"Had the poppy appeal never been made, it's unlikely those chaps would have ever got their opinion heard. "

their opinion would have been different and not needed to be said if it wasn't for the poppy appeal in it's current form - fallacious argument

[Huguenot]

I think it's clear they resented their role in the armed forces, and resented the government policies that saw them in action in wars of which they didn't approve.

It's resulted in bitter recriminations directed against institutions they consider to be involved.

I don't think the poppy appeal would have had the slightest impact on those beliefs, all it's done is given them the opportunity to air them.

[StraferJack]

it's clear is it?

i would suggest that it isn't anything of the kind and is merely you projecting

[Huguenot]

Oh come on, they were writing letters slagging off the Royal British Legion to a left of centre anti-war newspaper, quoting their service record as support for their anti-war stance.

It wasn't as if they were writing a letter discussing campaign semantics to Advertising Age.

It's no win argument anyway. If the RBL did a campaign slogan that said 'never again' you'd have millions of people asking why you'd undermine the sacrifice and commitment of the armed forces.

It's far healthier that we should campaign on pride for those sacrifices rather than cynical denigration. If you thought these wars were questionable, you have a problem with government not the armed forces.

Even that would miss the point. If you don't want wars over oil then stop using your car, turn down the heating, and dim the lights.

[TE44]

BB100 I think it is wrong to make children wear a poppy, and agree that assuptions are made if you refuse. If they have the power to exclude your nephew for a day, i am now assuming, they must give him the work he would have been doin at school, for him to do at home. I have found in situations where schools forget individuality, it is often better for a parent to get involved, if the child feels he is not being heard. This often opens a dialogue where understanding is met.

[BB100]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> BB100, it seems to me that you're now researching

> more information to support a rejection of the

> poppy appeal.

>

No, I just thought it would clarify some of the questions people have raised but it is interesting that my posting of what was just some information has provoked you into thinking there is something to reject. As regards my nephew rejecting authority he has no such motives. He chose not to wear a poppy long before the school insisted that he wears one.

I have every respect for the mature ones among us Huguenot but you are showing yourself as a cantankerous misery that thinks young people should be seen, not heard, do as their told and not have an opinion. Well the world has moved on and we need more young people in the world who can think for themselves and stand up for what they believe in, even if it does mean it doesn't quite sit with the majority. The earth may still be flat without those types. Too many young people just follow the crowd and have no original thoughts of their own and just ride on other people's opinion - there's one poster on this thread for example who does exactly that.

[BB100]

TE44 Wrote:

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> BB100 I think it is wrong to make children wear a

> poppy, and agree that assuptions are made if you

> refuse. If they have the power to exclude your

> nephew for a day, i am now assuming, they must

> give him the work he would have been doin at

> school, for him to do at home. I have found in

> situations where schools forget individuality, it

> is often better for a parent to get involved, if

> the child feels he is not being heard. This often

> opens a dialogue where understanding is met.

Thanks TE44. Yes his parents have spoken to the school and they have asked for it in writing! However, they have been most understanding - more than he would get from some on this forum - and he does not have to wear a poppy, although he is not allowed into the assembly without it. So it seems it is not possible to remember the dead without a poppy.

[TE44]

Glad it was partly resolved BB100 but i agree, the wearing of a poppy without a choice neither shows nor encourages children to have there own thoughts.

[david_carnell]

Out of interest, why won't your nephew wear one? Is it now a matter of principle?

[Huguenot]

It's clear that for TE44 it's also more important that nephew indulges his teenage whims than he learns cooperation, respect and empathy.

I love that little militant streak as well - 'make sure you get it in writing'. Are you going to sue them now?

Ha ha. *crosses eyes*

Did you also push burgers through the fence, campaign to ban sports day, take them out of school because exams were stressful, fly them to Spain during term time and instruct them that teachers had no right to tell them what to do?

If this nation suffers in the future it won't be down to hardworking, dedicated and well trained teachers trying to instil a sense of responsibility and application in school - it'll be down to halfwitted parents using their kids as a proxy for some sort of gormless anti-authority ideology.

[TE44]

And so it seems hugonot believes, no poppy no respect . Your post shows no respect for children and there rite to have there own thoughts. Empathy, respect and consideration is not for one day, maybe you should apply it to the living, after you have taken your poppy off, of course.

[david_carnell]

So how is the nephew going to show his respect? And if he is sooooo respectful anyway what harm does wearing a poppy do?

Or is there something larger and nastier at play here that I'm missing?

It's apolitical. It doesn't glorify war. I'm beginning to side with the school (and Huguenot) on this one.

[StraferJack]

like yellow ribbons in America around Gulf War 1

better have one outside your house lest ye be branded a communist

Or flag burning. "my daddy died in korea for that flag....!"

"what a coincidence, mine was made in Korea"

David, I think there IS something larger and nastier at play here

Rememberance is a small, gentle, private thing. Doing it nationally on Rememberance Day is a special day for publicly remembering

But beyond that it's beginning to get a little bit more McCarthyite every year

"So how is the nephew going to show his respect?"

well how do nephews/neices/populations the world over honour their dead? I bet they don't make the same song and dance over poppies. A decade ago it wasn't a big deal wether you did or not but it was still possible to donate and remember the dead - but each year the calls get a bit more shrill

But because the underlying cause is so worthy (in it's positive sense, not sneery sense) it's deemed ok to berate people

[david_carnell]

You miss my point. And quoting Bill Hicks jokes doesn't make you any more funny that it did him.

We're being told that this "nephew" is worthy and respectful anyway, yet there is an issue about wearing the poppy.....

I just don't understand and am beginning to suspect there is more at play here. As H said:

"halfwitted parents using their kids as a proxy for some sort of gormless anti-authority ideology."

If you don't want to wear one I don't mind and wouldn't judge you on it. Picking a fight with a school for asking their pupils to do so in an assembly seems unreasonably bloody-minded.