Train service under threat

[Bic Basher]

This route diagram for the proposed frequencies to Thameslink after completion has two services for Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye.

2tph from St Albans to Bellingham (which also calls at Nunhead) and 2tph from Luton to Sevenoaks which should give a 15 min service (4 trains per hour) to the core section.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/TLP%20Route%20Diagram.pdf

[Zebedee Tring]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This route diagram for the proposed frequencies to

> Thameslink after completion has two services for

> Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye.

>

> 2tph from St Albans to Bellingham (which also

> calls at Nunhead) and 2tph from Luton to Sevenoaks

> which should give a 15 min service (4 trains per

> hour) to the core section.

> http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollection

> Documents/TLP%20Route%20Diagram.pdf

Aren't there also 2 tph from Maidstone East to Welwyn Garden City via Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye? This would make six Thameslink tph through Denmark Hill, albeit on two different routes north of St Pancras.

[Bic Basher]

You're correct, this should bring a 10 minute service to DH and Peckham Rye to Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St. Pancras.

It's also worth noting that the Maidstone East service is fast from Peckham Rye to Bromley South and from Denmark Hill to Blackfriars.

[Undisputedtruth]

From the slides I've seen before, there should be four offpeak and peak Thameslink trains passing through Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead in 2015.

[Renata Hamvas]

To confirm, the consultation is on the through service from Sevenoaks to Bedford. Intially it was due to be the Wimbledon line that was to be cut past Blackfriars. Now, the Sevenoaks service is under threat as an alternative to cutting the Wimbledon loop through service.

This is in addition to the loss of the Victoria to London Bridge service (South London Line) from December. So far no replacement service has been offered. The current alternative Victoria service from Dartford, does not run past about 7pm nor on Sundays.

I therefore urge all readers who use this service to partake in the consultation.

Renata

[PSJ]

Page 30, section 7.21 of http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-23/consultation-thameslink.pdf seems to be the key part.

I see so many fellow commuters from E.D go from D-Hill to City and Farringdon, so have to change at Blackfriars would be a big annoyance for a lot of people.

[benevetts]

Hi Renata

Is there a joined up approach by Southwark, Lewisham and Bromley councils on this - noting that as statutory consultees they will have far greater weight than the general public - even though this is of course important.

Bee good know know progress from a Southwark POV so far too

Thanks

Ben

[Undisputedtruth]

PSJ Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Page 30, section 7.21 of

> http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-23

> /consultation-thameslink.pdf seems to be the key

> part.

>

> I see so many fellow commuters from E.D go from

> D-Hill to City and Farringdon, so have to change

> at Blackfriars would be a big annoyance for a lot

> of people.

A very important fact is missing from that particular section. Wimbledon loop/Herne Hill trains cannot run 12 carriages trains compared to those going through Denmark Hill and Blackfriars. For those who don't know, the idea behind the Thameslink2000 involved more uses of 12 carriages trains and greater thoroughfare via Blackfriars and London Bridge stations.

eta: don't.

[Earl Aelfheah]

During rush hour, how many Victoria trains will run from Denmark hill after December? From the TFL website I cannot work out whether it will be 3 or 4. Does anyone know?

[Undisputedtruth]

After December, Denmark Hill will just have the Dartford service to London Victoria. Frequency of service are 2 tph Monday to Saturday. There'll be no Sunday service or trains running after 7pm.

[Girl82]

So wait - am I right in saying that as of December this year, the South London Line (Victoria to London Bridge) will be axed, and there will only be two trains an hour running from Peckham Rye to Victoria? That's awful!

[Jeremy]

So many people are obsessed with the prospect of getting "the tube" (the London Overground is not the tube, and doesn't offer tube-style frequency), that they're losing sight of the fact that services from Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to central London are being cut significantly.

[David A]

You're quite right Jeremy.

The ELL will be great if you fancy a curry at the 'Lahore Kebab House' in Whitechapel, or a pint with a mate in Richmond.

I do both now and again.

Likewise Arsenal fans, fans of the Six Nations and displaced Dalston scenesters will delighted.

I'm none of those.

But getting into central London, particularly the parts most people want to go, will be a lot trickier, and it's far from great at the moment.

It's a nice add-on, but it's not close to being a replacement for the South London line.

I've also got reservations about any line that links Peckham (the new Dalston) with Dalston (the new Shoreditch) and Shoreditch (pretty Shoreditchy already).

Even if you could find your way through the single speed bikes and ironic head-wear to get a seat, it would probably have a sockless, loafered hoof on it.

We?re replacing (pretty much) direct access to the West End and Borough areas with a line which connects us to the ?World?s Busiest Railway Station? and 'London?s Most Overrated Craphole'.

In short:

The Winners: Me (on the occasional weekend); Other lovers of authentic Punjabi food at reasonable prices (BYO); Gooners keeping their heads down at Surrey Canal Road; Rugby fans called Olly, pissed and singing ?I Stuck My Finger in the Woodpecker?s Hole? with their knobs out, on their way to Twickenham; People with asymmetrical haircuts and Mac AirBooks.

The Losers: Pretty much everyone else really.

Frankly, it?s much more of a ?Bah? than a ?Meh? for me.

[Bic Basher]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So many people are obsessed with the prospect of

> getting "the tube" (the London Overground is not

> the tube, and doesn't offer tube-style frequency),

> that they're losing sight of the fact that

> services from Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to

> central London are being cut significantly.

The new extension may not offer the same tube frequency you'd expect in Central London, but is on a par with branches of the Metropolitan line, the Mill Hill East branch of the Northern and is more regular than the Central line's Hainault loop.

While the ELL doesn't offer the Central London terminus it appears that passengers (or those who represent SRUG), it offers an easier interchange with the tube network and DLR at Shadwell.

SRUG/Undisputedtruth's "it's s***" attitude to the ELL despite offering more trains and extra capacity on carriages doesn't take into consideration the change in passenger travelling habits as seen on the Sydenham line used by ED'ers who use Honor Oak Park and Forest Hill who have since 2010 put the Overground service to full capacity may lead to changes to usage in existing Southern services from Peckham Rye. Where I agree with SRUG is the lack of direct services to Victoria, although both Peckham and Camberwell have an extensive bus service to Victoria station. Is it really that inconvenient to use the 36, 185 or 436?

At a LOROL stakeholder meeting I attended, a rep from TfL London Rail showed graphs of the new Clapham Junction service also being full to capacity from Peckham Rye.

[showboat]

David A.

Greatest. Post. Ever.

[Jeremy]

I'm sure several people find the Overground useful. And I'm sure many people are delighted at the potential rise in property prices now that they're on the tube map. But the majority of people want direct services into central London.

And yes, it really is inconvenient to get the bus instead. Much slower, much less comfortable, erratic arrival times and journey lengths. It's almost insulting to suggest it as a viable alternative.

[motorbird83]

Agree with Jeremy. A 15m journey on the train cannot be compared with a 45m bus journey (if you are lucky). You undermine your more credible points by saying things like that.

[David A]

Bic Basher,

Comparing the frequency of the ELL service to the Met line and Mill Hill branch is a bit misleading isn't it?

The majority of stops on those lines are also served by other services - the Jubilee in the case of the Met and the High Barnet branch in the case of Mill Hill.

And I?d be highly surprised if most people on the Hainault loop could squeeze their false chests out of a tanning booth for long enough to watch ?The Only Way is Essex?, let alone use a tube line.

It?s ridiculous that a vibrant and densely populated inner London suburb like Peckham will have a service frequency on a par with Zone 4 outer suburbs like Preston Road and Northwick Park, the latter a place so unspeakably faceless that it?s probably twinned with somewhere that doesn?t even exist.

Although it does have a service that goes directly into central London. Every fifteen minutes. Like we have with the South London line.

In twenty years of working in London there is, at most, one year in total (working in Shoreditch and Olympia) when the ELL would have made my commute easier and I suspect most people would find the same thing.

I?m sure the ELL is a very nice line and I?ll use it at the weekends, not because I need or want to, but just because I can.

It just strikes me as something of a trophy, rather than a transport link that we actually need like the South London line.

[Renata Hamvas]

To confirm it would be 2 tph/Victoria but only until early evening, not on Sunday and not early morning either from December. The possible truncating of the Bedford service from Sevenoaks would be in addition to this. The latter cut would also have a great impact on residents from other boroughs living along this route. The ELL will not be the sam as the current rail services as it's radial, a bit like a south circular train service, rather than going directly into central London.

Renata

[bheroniphr]

I use these serfvices heavily and would like to make comments on the consultation.

Am I missing something on the DfT website that is linked to in Renata's post or is the only way to make comment to send a mail to the address:

[email protected]

Thanks

[njc97]

David A - the ELL will also be convenient for getting to the East City (via Shoreditch HS), central London (changing at Canada Water). South London line goes nowhere near the West End - you have to change. And the timetable has been designed so that getting to Victoria doesnt take much longer (albeit with a change).

[Jeremy]

Canada Water and Shoreditch High Street. Yeah, that's a good substitute for London Bridge and Victoria.

[LondonMix]

NJC97, the trip to London bridge via the ELL will be longer- 15-20 min depending on the time it takes to change trains etc vs 10 min now. Victoria station is in the West-end (right in the middle of Sloan Street and St James Park) so your other comment makes no sense at all NJC97. If you mean Covent Garden area as the West End, its a very short change at London Bridge to one of the trains heading to Charing Cross. The journey to Victoria via Clapham Junction will also be at least 10 min longer, which is a considerable difference for a journey that currently only takes 16m on the South London Line.

This really is not rocket science. The ELL does not go to central London as it is designed as a greater London orbital. Even with inter-changes with the tube, getting to Central London indirectly via an orbital loop will always be longer than direct trains into the city centre. Arguing the opposite is nonsense. It's better that you simply state that the benefits (connecting the extremities of greater London) outweigh the negatives of losing some of the more direct service. I don't actually think that's true-- like others I will use the ELL primarily on weekends to visit friends in south-west London and in East London which will be great. But for work, unless your company is based in Canary Wharf or Shoreditch you aren't better off and given that many of the areas this new line serve are economically disadvantaged, making access to jobs in central London more difficult seems like madness. The orbital is a good idea but not at the expense of direct service to the centre.

[Undisputedtruth]

njc97 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> David A - the ELL will also be convenient for

> getting to the East City (via Shoreditch HS),

> central London (changing at Canada Water). South

> London line goes nowhere near the West End - you

> have to change. And the timetable has been

> designed so that getting to Victoria doesnt take

> much longer (albeit with a change).

The SLL conects you to tube lines at London Bridge and Victoria for extensive reach into central London while ELL cannot. You can get the Jubilee and Northern line at London Bridge and District, Circle and Victoria lines at Victoria station. Furthermore, there are trains from London Bridge that takes you into Charing Cross for Bakerloo and Northern lines. And yes, it would be very inconvenient and time consuming to change at Clapham Junction for Victoria. The ELL takes you to platform one and trains to Victoria runs from platforms 12 & 14. What is it with people like Basher Bic and others where they don't seem to have any respect for people's time? The ELL journey to Victoria adds fifteen minutes to a commuter's time when you take into account the nightmare platform changing at CJ, waiting for a train, and journey time to Victoria station. This works out to half an hour a day, 130 hours over a year or 1300 hours over a decade wasted for a commuter travelling to work as an alternative to the SLL.

Bic Basher, no one has a poor attitude towards the ELL as it would extend the reach to other outer parts of London. But as I have argued all along it is no replacement for the SLL with its extensive reach into central London. Also you have not told me anything new about the ELL that I didn't know before. I suspect you're out of your depth here.

[Bic Basher]

Also you have not told

> me anything new about the ELL that I didn't know

> before. I suspect you're out of your depth here.

Yet you and SRUG who I suspect you're a member of or at least in a senior capacity with the organisation don't mention on your website about the predicted use of the ELL, instead moaning about the lack of national rail services from Southern and Southeastern.

While I admire your campaign for the SLL and additional services into Victoria, it doesn't take into consideration the overall public transport infrastructure that Peckham and Camberwell have. An extensive bus service into Central London which compensates for the lack of rail services on a par with the likes of Hackney who also have similar issues with a higher bus to rail quota. Don't get me wrong, Peckham needs more alternatives, the ELL is one, a tram service/Bakerloo line extension another and hopefully more Thameslink services from 2019.

Nunhead does have a claim for improved rail services though when the main link into Central London are the poor frequency Southeastern services or the 78 bus.

You can claim that I'm out of my depth or whatever, yet the reality for passengers from December will be that they'll change their travel patterns for a minority of passengers who don't use the bus or the Southeastern/Southern services not on the SLL.