LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[Rockets]

Ok, more evidence...here you go....

July 9th...

July 11 - this is the crew I saw on the Sunday and look what Charlie Smith is holding...that would be the Labour paraphernalia to which you refer....freshly printed following the release of the interim report no doubt?

Now where is that smoking gun emoji...;-)

But hey, it's just a conspiracy theory so you don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

[ohthehugemanateeLTN3]

Rockets Wrote:

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Still curious about the winking, guess I'll never know...

> Ok, more evidence...here you go....

>

> July 9th...

>

> https://twitter.com/SouthwarkLabour/status/1413589

> 180828037122?s=19

"We've also been reminding residents to complete the Dulwich Consultation. The deadline has been extended to the 18th July and you can respond here"

Not really seeing the problem with that.

> July 11 - look what Charlie Smith is holding...

>

> https://twitter.com/SuecharlieSmith/status/1414271

> 581300445191?s=19

I don't know which one Charlie Smith is.

The only definitive thing I can see is people holding leaflets inviting people "have your say on Dulwich road closures".

What am I meant to be outraged about?

There's certainly evidence of the council canvassing and getting people to state their views. This hardly seems like some Q level conspiracy.

[ab29]

Sure - who cares about people when you have Labour-made, magical data showing fall in traffic while at the same time buses are stuck in said traffic for much longer now.

[first mate]

Manatee says, "don't know which one Charlie Smith is"

That's a bit odd. He is a very well known Labour Councillor. Perhaps you do not live locally at all?

[legalalien]

Interesting article in the Argus - Brighton and Hove Council voted to remove a cycle lane which they?ve decided is in the wrong place and central government threatens a funding cut if they do. I get central govt has a role to make sure funding is properly spent, but is it appropriate for it to intervene in local implementation in this way? I?d have thought not. For context the decision to remove seems to be the result of a combination of Labour and Conservative councillors opposing the Green majority.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19481796.funding-cycle-lanes-brighton-hove-halted/

[Rockets]

Obviously we cant comment on the particular implementation and determine what was happening there but my there are so many similarities with some of the frustrations many of us are feeling that appear in one of the articles about one of them (and shows how effective some form of councillor opposition in situ is)...

"As locals, why were we not consulted when this was put in? This are our homes, our children breathing fumes from traffic jams.

"It feeling to us like it was 'like it or lump it'."

Information about the route, and other lanes across the city, was presented to councillors ahead of this week's key meeting.

The report included traffic monitoring data, which showed there had been no decrease in average traffic speed on the road. However, residents say this is not the case.

Patricia Weller said: "I'm not anti-cycle lanes, only ones which are not thought out and are not working.

"We've invited councillors to hear our concerns but we have been told they're busy."

[ohthehugemanateeLTN3]

first mate Wrote:

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> Manatee says, "don't know which one Charlie Smith

> is"

Yep.

> That's a bit odd.

Nope.

> He is a very well known Labour

> Councillor.

I'll add it to the list of things I don't know about Labour, local or otherwise.

> Perhaps you do not live locally at

> all?

Or, you know, perhaps I do (the admins I'm sure could confirm my banned IP address is in London, but geolocation sadly won't put it much more precisely than that). Maybe you've just read about the local councillors (not hard, the info is online) merely to troll some distant internet forum from your home elsewhere.

I've never had much to do with local politics. I read the manifestos, and about my choice of councillors specifically at election time, place my vote and then provided everything seems to be going OK, I forget about it for the next few years and worry about other things in my life instead.

Now here's the really important thing: I came on this thread to discuss the LTN. The point is whether the arguments are rational and backed with data, not figuring out which to dismiss because I don't like the person. Going based on what is said, not who said it the case for LTNs is very clear.

[first mate]

Well, many well informed posters, with a seemingly good handle on the data, beg to differ.

[ohthehugemanateeLTN3]

first mate Wrote:

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> Well, many well informed posters, with a seemingly

> good handle on the data, beg to differ.

Not that I've seen. The data to me is pretty clearly in favour of LTNs.

BTW on a long, active thread with many people posting asynchronously, it helps to quote a little bit of relevant context.

[Metallic]

sally buying Wrote:

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> With regard to the Dulwich LTN, could someone

> answer this question. I do not want to make a

> costly mistake.

>

> With regard to passing thru the Village. If I were

> to turn right out of Dulwich Park heading north

> after 10.00 could I head straight through to EDG

> and Red Post Hill.

>

> I spotted while walking yesterday the signs that

> said no entry 8-10 a.m, so took it as being ok to

> turn right but I cannot remember the afternoon

> times.

>

> I have not been using the park because not being

> able to turn right adds a great deal of time to my

> home journey.

>

> I would appreciate an answer from those that

> know.

>

> Many thanks

After 10am there is a general all clear until 3pm.

[heartblock]

Traffic went down in London in Boroughs without LTNs equally with Boroughs with LTNs in London over the Covid period. Traffic went up on ED Grove during this period, by at least 26%

The data on ?road? accidents was only measured in closed roads (sorry LTNs) and went down, as did the level of road accidents in the UK during Covid.

The data collected to prove LTNs reduced accidents by certain researchers did not include any measurement on so called external roads.....

Roads like LL, Croxted, ED Grove and Vale.

How, when and what data is collected and how it is compared is important. I am used to the gold standard of medical research (double-blinded, ethics, meta-analysis) and I do realise that the qualitative research is part of looking at societal impacts, but I do find this research in some aspects, requiring a closer look and needing some critical appraisal.

I would much rather that data was collected independently, using traffic levels and pollution levels compared outside of Covid lockdown. With this data independently analysed blindly (so unaware if pre, post, LTN, no LTN.)

Anyway, for all those who suggested both on the forum and on other social media, that it was my overactive imagination and my flawed perception that my residential road had a massive increase in traffic, with some members of a cycling group and a supposedly clean air campaign (or a quiet road for me and who cares about anybody else?s lungs campaign) who trolled me on social media and tried to encourage a pile on when I explained the horrible traffic on my road...

I was right..wasn?t I, it had increased.

[Rockets]

Manatee...Charlie Smith will probably be round to introduce himself...he will be upset that there is someone who says they are local yet doesn't know who he is....he is very much part of the fabric of Dulwich life and has been for many years in his role as a Goose Green councillor.

You suggest that first mate might be trolling from some far away land yet it is clear when you look back at people's posts who are local.

That evidence suggests people like first mate are far more entwined in local issues. You arrived with a flurry of pro-LTN rhetoric, got banned (at least twice), don't know who Charlie Smith is and accuse others of potentially being a troll from a faraway land.....

Out of interest what data have you seen that, in your view, supports the LTNs in Dulwich?

[ohthehugemanateeLTN3]

Rockets, it seems that you not only live in an echo chamber, but you also don't seem to believe that anyone who lives differently from you is due a voice. I don't live in Goose Green, and I'm uninterested in local party politics. I've also never had cause to directly engage with councillors. You don't seem to believe that anyone who doesn't experience Dulwich in precisely the same way as you can possibly disagree with you. I live at the other end of Dulwich, have done for 10 years and own no car. If you read my posts it's every bit as clear that I'm a local as your friends are.

First mate accused me of being not local because of this, something you seem happy with but you seem very upset with the idea that he also might not be. I suggest you stop acting as an attack dog supporting other people's personal attacks such behaviour reflects very poorly on the anti-LTN cause. On second thoughts, do continue...

As for the data, we've both seen it and my interpretation of it yet again will not convince you otherwise, given that you seem to consider any data that doesn't support your arguments as biased. But I will leave you with this question:

Traffic has been growing steadily in London for decades. Congestion charging knocked it back temporarily but it soon climbed past the pre charge levels. Where do you think we will be in 10 years if we do nothing?

[alice]

Your argument is invalid. No one wants to do nothing.

[first mate]

I think I see what is happening here, it is to keep attacking people on a personal level but accuse them of doing the same in the hope others believe this is what is actually happening. Tiresome.

Anyway, agree with Alice's point.

[Rockets]

ohthehugemanateeLTN3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rockets, it seems that you not only live in an

> echo chamber, but you also don't seem to believe

> that anyone who lives differently from you is due

> a voice. I don't live in Goose Green, and I'm

> uninterested in local party politics. I've also

> never had cause to directly engage with

> councillors. You don't seem to believe that anyone

> who doesn't experience Dulwich in precisely the

> same way as you can possibly disagree with you. I

> live at the other end of Dulwich, have done for 10

> years and own no car. If you read my posts it's

> every bit as clear that I'm a local as your

> friends are.

>

> First mate accused me of being not local because

> of this, something you seem happy with but you

> seem very upset with the idea that he also might

> not be. I suggest you stop acting as an attack dog

> supporting other people's personal attacks such

> behaviour reflects very poorly on the anti-LTN

> cause. On second thoughts, do continue...

>

>

> As for the data, we've both seen it and my

> interpretation of it yet again will not convince

> you otherwise, given that you seem to consider any

> data that doesn't support your arguments as

> biased. But I will leave you with this question:

>

> Traffic has been growing steadily in London for

> decades. Congestion charging knocked it back

> temporarily but it soon climbed past the pre

> charge levels. Where do you think we will be in 10

> years if we do nothing?

Come on, do share the data.....what data is it that has convinced you so much....I am genuinely interested? Share it and let's debate it...

[heartblock]

There is no data that proves LTNs reduce pollution. None. Not any. Nothing.

[char1i3]

Longest thread ever on the EDF.

I sold my car five years ago and only cycle or walk round the neighbourhood now. If I need to drive to the dump or out of town I use a zip car or getaround shared car.

I am happier and richer by not having a car. Cycling is quicker. Walking is nice. And now the highway code has been updated to prioritise cyclists more. The LTN is great, less traffic is good.

Why can't we all just give up the car? Amsterdam is a great city. We could be like Amsterdam.

Charlie

[Rockets]

Does anyone know why TFL bundles walking and cycling...I saw this and thought it was very interesting..

[dougiefreeman]

char1i3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Longest thread ever on the EDF.

>

> I sold my car five years ago and only cycle or

> walk round the neighbourhood now. If I need to

> drive to the dump or out of town I use a zip car

> or getaround shared car.

>

> I am happier and richer by not having a car.

> Cycling is quicker. Walking is nice. And now the

> highway code has been updated to prioritise

> cyclists more. The LTN is great, less traffic is

> good.

>

> Why can't we all just give up the car? Amsterdam

> is a great city. We could be like Amsterdam.

>

>

> Charlie

We could be.

If London wasn?t 7 times the size of Amsterdam?

[Rockets]

dougiefreeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> char1i3 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Longest thread ever on the EDF.

> >

> > I sold my car five years ago and only cycle or

> > walk round the neighbourhood now. If I need to

> > drive to the dump or out of town I use a zip

> car

> > or getaround shared car.

> >

> > I am happier and richer by not having a car.

> > Cycling is quicker. Walking is nice. And now

> the

> > highway code has been updated to prioritise

> > cyclists more. The LTN is great, less traffic

> is

> > good.

> >

> > Why can't we all just give up the car?

> Amsterdam

> > is a great city. We could be like Amsterdam.

> >

> >

> > Charlie

>

> We could be.

> If London wasn?t 7 times the size of Amsterdam?

Yes a lot of people forget this/don't realise this. They also often don't realise that the Dutch own more cars per capita than we do in the UK.

[heartblock]

I walk...cycle occasionally, take trains, tubes and buses. Public transport is terrible still for people with mobility issues and pavements dreadful for those with visual impairment. Greater London is huge. Better, cleaner, cheaper public transport is needed across London.

The whole Amsterdam thing is a fallacy, car ownership per capita is far higher than London, despite the size and public transport cheap and well connected with trams, metro, trains and ferries.

Just because LCC thinks cycling is the ?answer? doesn?t make it true.

[geh]

trains to London Bridge halved

trains to Crystal Palace, stopped entirely

what is going on, I have seen nothing from either councillors or MP on these cuts.

guess we are just supposed to suck it up

[Artemis]

geh Wrote:

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> trains to London Bridge halved

> trains to Crystal Palace, stopped entirely

> what is going on, I have seen nothing from either

> councillors or MP on these cuts.

> guess we are just supposed to suck it up

Agreed. How are any attempts to encourage people to move away from driving going to work if the councils/government/TFL do not work together? Reducing public transport options at the same time as shutting roads is extraordinary. Is NO consideration being taken for those who aren?t able to cycle or walk to where they need to go?

[ohthehugemanateeLTN3]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Manatee says, "don't know which one Charlie Smith

> is"

>

> That's a bit odd. He is a very well known Labour

> Councillor. Perhaps you do not live locally at

> all?

[...]

> I think I see what is happening here, it is to

> keep attacking people on a personal level but

> accuse them of doing the same in the hope others

> believe this is what is actually happening.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Dude, your two messages are on the same page? Do you really think everyone here is so dim they won't notice?

Alice Wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------

> Your argument is invalid. No one wants to do nothing.

No one apart from One Dulwich, who given the choice between doing nothing and suggesting an alternative went for the former. And you. Until you come up with an actual practical solution which is even vaguely possible to implement given UK politics and power structures, you are advocating doing nothing.