LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[tiddles]

Ab29 - spot on

[Asset]

just to add, quite a few souls are dragged away by big lorries, usually those of cyclists..

[johnhinton]

Sorry Metallic, I meant to be light-hearted, not hard-hearted. Souls or soil being carted around is heart-breaking too. Will it be handled well? I very much doubt it

[Metallic]

johnhinton Wrote:

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> Sorry Metallic, I meant to be light-hearted, not

> hard-hearted. Souls or soil being carted around is

> heart-breaking too. Will it be handled well? I

> very much doubt it

Well anyway.

[Bicknell]

have i got this right this is all weve got on traffic data

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review

[DuncanW]

Thanks for sharing the link.

Have you looked at the attached PDFs?

[Earl Aelfheah]

The data shows:

The volume of motor traffic counted on internal streets had decreased by -31% around Dulwich Village, and -79% in East Dulwich.

The volume of motor traffic counted on external streets had decreased by -11% around Dulwich Village and ?3% around Champion Hill, but increased by +2% around East Dulwich.

The volume of cycles on internal streets had increased by +103% around Dulwich Village, and +29% in East Dulwich and +19% on Champion Hill.

The volume of cycles on external streets had also increased by between +43% to +70%.

The overall volume of motor traffic recorded across all streets has decreased by -16%

Data from Vivacity Sensors shows increases in the number of cycles counted of +126%, +48% +86%, +69% and +292% on Calton Avenue, Townley Road, Burbage Road, Melbourne Grove and Champion Hill respectively.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The LTNs have reduced car usage and increased active travel. But it's not perfect. So rather than improve it, we should scrap the whole thing and negotiate a new (unspecified) deal with the exact same benefits.

Oh and this better scheme which will be agreed with everyone, will reduce car use without make driving more difficult.

[oimissus]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> The LTNs have reduced car usage and increased

> active travel. But it's not perfect. So rather

> than improve it, we should scrap the whole thing

> and negotiate a new (unspecified) deal with the

> exact same benefits.

>

> Oh and this better scheme which will be agreed

> with everyone, will reduce car use without make

> driving more difficult.

I've had a quick look at that link and correct me if I'm wrong but that data is from April 2021. So we were still coming out of the spring lockdown at that point.

Can you let me know on what basis you are claiming that this reduction is due to the LTN, rather the lockdown? How is it possible to know?

[Earl Aelfheah]

@oimissus - You're right that it's the interim report from April. There will be an updated version with more recent data published as I understand it.

Whilst it's possible it will show something different, it seems unlikely that making driving around the local area more difficult, would increase the number of people using their cars. Similarly with cycling - more people tend to use their bikes, when there are quite streets they can choose. I know it's anecdotal, but you can see a lot more kids cycling through the LTNs, where they're not having to mix with so many cars, vans and lorries.

All the research on this (and common sense) suggests that making car journeys more convenient, increases car use rather than reduces it and vice versa.

[legalalien]

The question is though, whether the reduction in the number of journeys / people using cars is offset or more than offset by the increase in the time and distance of the remaining journeys, plus any increases in deliveries etc where the former car user elects to have something delivered rather than switch to an ?active? journey. And that?s the data we just don?t seem to have.

This paper is interesting re lack of data/ studies.

https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/OutputFile/7520718

[heartblock]

Car use/traffic was reduced across London in areas with and WITHOUT LTNs according to TFL, to erroneously claim that LTNs are the main causal factor of any reduced car use in Dulwich is misleading. In fact traffic and bus journeys increased on ED Grove after LTNs were introduced, while bus journey times decreased on average across London during lockdown.

So...you know..think about it ....

[ab29]

Help end road closures in Dulwich - contribute if you can:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-end-road-closures-in-dulwich?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=p_cp%20share-sheet&fbclid=IwAR2GgiqBx3fqhrI4AvZ3E-mRuTE_kjTWUM8rbXkLAUco-EDO-olAvf2CLno

[heartblock]

Oh and TFL has also published data that cycle use has dropped back across London to almost pre-lockdown levels...I imagine quite a few bicycles on gumtree soon, not my little two wheeled horse though, she travels pre/post lockdowns and pandemics, but doesn?t like rain 😜

[heartblock]

Oh and active travel includes walking..cycling across London increase was minuscule compared to walking during lockdown....when a lot of so called ?huge increase in cycling? numbers are quoted (not necessarily Southwark data), that LCC and other lobby groups use to ?prove? their opinions - it is frequently based on increases in walking bundled in with small increases in cycling....

If you highlight this on Twitter with the raw data..LCC blocks you.

Charming.

[Earl Aelfheah]

heartblock Wrote:

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> Oh and TFL has also published data that cycle use

> has dropped back across London to almost

> pre-lockdown levels...I imagine quite a few

> bicycles on gumtree soon, not my little two

> wheeled horse though, she travels pre/post

> lockdowns and pandemics, but doesn?t like rain

> 😜

Any link to this data?

And any evidence that making driving easier, reduces car journeys? There is lot's showing the opposite.

I know you've said previously that it's best not to respond to requests for evidence or to questions from others, but this is a discussion forum, so perhaps you'll reconsider?

Re. walking, if people decide not to make a journey in their car, many will walk it instead. LTNs discourage car use, particularly for short local trips.

[ab29]

"LTNs discourage car use" - how?

[alice]

Covid discouraged car use. There wasn?t anywhere to go.

[Nigello]

A not-really-needed reminder that car/other vehicle use causes congestion and pollution as witnessed by the substantial numbers of cars on the roads due to the schools being back, at least some of them. It is the people wot do it!

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Data from Vivacity Sensors shows increases in the number of cycles counted of +126%, +48% +86%, +69% and +292% on Calton Avenue, Townley Road, Burbage Road, Melbourne Grove and Champion Hill respectively.

Sadly, as we know from previous "evidence packs" from Southwark we cannot trust any of their numbers. Remember the claimed 47% increase in traffic through the junction which was actually just becuase they used a base figure when the junction was being re-modelled and they had 4 way traffic lights?

Did they have Vivacity sensors in place before the DV junction was closed and the other LTN meaures implemented? If not they are not comparing like with like, a standard Southwark trick.

[ab29]

"A not-really-needed reminder that car/other vehicle use causes congestion and pollution" - what does it actually mean? That the so-called LTN brought more air pollution, dirt and noise to already dirty and polluted roads?

[Bicknell]

thanks for replies about trafic data

so am i right that this is all there is?

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review

Because i thought they said there would also be data for June by the end of august

and air modeling data

[Earl Aelfheah]

ab29 Wrote:

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> "LTNs discourage car use" - how?

by making it less convenient to drive.

[ab29]

I talked to friends, family, acquaintances, neighbours - not a single person has given up driving or is planning to do so. People allow longer time for their driving, they are using different routes etc ?they are angry, disappointed, worried, pissed off - not single one of them has any intention to change their driving habits.

On the contrary.

?Why would I care? if fewer people drive or not is a typical response ? and I?ve been asking myself the same question since the so-called LTN extravaganza started.

The only thing that the LTN has achieved so far is to push more air pollution, dirt and noise to already noisy and polluted roads like Lordship Lane or East Dulwich Grove.

Why on earth would I care? No one cares about me.

[slarti b]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> > "LTNs discourage car use" - how? > by making it less convenient to drive.

But you ignore the fact that Dulwich already has an extremely high level of active travel, much much higher than the rest of Southwark and already far higher that Southwark's target for 2025(?). If local residents are driving it is because they need to (eg weekly shopping) or are older or less mobile and cannot cycle or walk.

So closing roads doesdn't mean they will use cars less, only that they will travel longer distances and cause more congestion and pollution.