Fire cuts

[DJKillaQueen]

Sigh...and you don't want to accept the published facts, which I may add go beyond yourself and the fire station you personally work at. If you had bothered to look at the links I provided for example, you would see they are not just simply 'a page or two' from the media. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims then you need to have hard facts to back that up. Just saying 'I am a fireman and have been one for 26 years' doesn't discredit the data that is out there, from many reputable sources.

This is perhaps why the public aren't as on side with public sector unions as you would like. Because those unions take the public for idiots. Try to scare us with stories of disaster and chaos if anything is changed and then when presented with hard data to question that, say the kind of things you are saying...which to be frank is, that you know best and the data is wrong.

And btw ...having the same thing for less IS still cutting funding. If the fire service can deliver the same for 12% less then great. We know they can do it for 5% less. But all, that internal documents are leaking to the media, are worst case proposals to close x amount of fire stations and make redundant x amount of personnel. If the fire unions instead presented logical debate which had some relationsship to the data out there, then maybe I and the public would listen, and be on board. Unfortunately all the public ever hears is self serving defiance that nothing should be cut, wages should not be frozen, pensions not be touched etc and to do this at a time when many public sector workers are struggling and facing a bleak and poor old age, is both insulting, and out of tune with the mood of the public.

[Jessie]

**not all of us, SPC

[Chippy Minton]

If this ever happens to me, I would like the Fire Service, not the Ambulance Service, to come and get me out ASAP.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63237000/jpg/_63237628_bin_man.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-19790191

[Huguenot]

How much more would ED citizens be willing to pay in council tax to ensure we can rescue Chippy from any bin he sticks his head in within 3 minutes?

Given that Chippy is probably marginally brighter than 'Our Willie' depicted in the photo, for how many years would they be willing to pay those hugely inflated taxes for a service that has a vanishingly small chance of ever being used?

The Fire Service must be fit for purpose, relevant for the modern age and funded accordingly. It must balance possible risk against potential impact and the various investment opportunities.

Having worked in the fire service for 20+ years guarantees you no more of the skills to run a national fire service with appropriate funding and resource distribution than living in a house means you can build one.

[Marmora Man]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

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> If this ever happens to me, I would like the Fire

> Service, not the Ambulance Service, to come and

> get me out ASAP.

>

> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63237000/jpg

> /_63237628_bin_man.jpg

>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-o

> rkney-shetland-19790191

I reckon I could cut that man free with a decent Swiss Army knife in about 5 minutes. Specialist tools to free an idiot from a plastic bin.

[Chippy Minton]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> I reckon I could cut that man free with a decent

> Swiss Army knife in about 5 minutes.

From the man that thinks you can drive a tube train after 5 days training...what a surprise!!!

No doubt because you've worked in the health service you can perform brain surgery after a two week correspondence course as well.

[Marmora Man]

A question for spc & herrick.

You both bemoan the quality of your management. You both aver that greater efficiencies can be delivered if only management stopped coming up with crazy ideas such as changing shift patterns.

So - where do these dysfunctional Fire Brigade managers come from? To the best of my knowledge the majority come from the ranks of the fire brigade. If that is the case what happens to them on promotion to cause them to lose touch, or is it that they can see a bigger picture from their elevated position?

[Marmora Man]

CM said: "No doubt because you've worked in the health service you can perform brain surgery after a two week correspondence course as well".

No - neurosurgery is beyond me, but I've managed teams of neurosurgeons and negotiated contracts for delivering neurosurgery to the NHS so a I'm pretty rounded sort of chap. Full CV available on request.

[Huguenot]

I think that when Unions think there is an equivalence between neurosurgery and tube driving, you know they've jumped the shark.

[Chippy Minton]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> I'm pretty rounded sort of chap. Full CV available on

> request.

Yes please...I'd like your number for when my house burns down at 3am on a Sunday. I'll need someone that doesn't have any formal qualifications, but who is obviously capable of saving me because they once replaced the battery in their smoke alarm using a step ladder.

[Loz]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Marmora Man Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I reckon I could cut that man free with a

> decent

> > Swiss Army knife in about 5 minutes.

>

> From the man that thinks you can drive a tube

> train after 5 days training...what a surprise!!!

I agree. I reckon I could learn how to press one of three buttons on a train designed to run without a driver much quicker than that.

[StraferJack]

"Yes please...I'd like your number for when my house burns down at 3am on a Sunday. I'll need someone that doesn't have any formal qualifications, but who is obviously capable of saving me because they once replaced the battery in their smoke alarm using a step ladder."

To be slightly fair to Marmora Man here (even tho' I'm probably on the opposite side of much of his argument) if I could have any civilian at hand to help deal with an emergency (be it fire or whatever) then it would be him. The man Gets Things Done

[herrick]

i only came here to advise , and a lot of what i hear is utter narrow minded tripe.what moron mentioned the hero bit? im too bored to scroll up - pensions issues, anti union issues a- seperate thread , etc etc - ladies and gents - for those of you with minds like parachutes then feel free to pop into local stations and ask about what we do , rather than read some tripe in the sun and daily mail etc etc - im here to help for those of you that want it , you know where we are - ps i am not a union man and i am management so lose that pre judgemental tunnel vision , it may hinder you when operating your swiss army knife when releasing a trapped child :)

excuse the hasty reply and feel free to PM me with any sensible adult questions reference fire and rescue capability , anything else i will ignore - regards Herrick

[Huguenot]

Sanctimonious claptrap.

We know what you do. It's great. What the nation is asking you is whether you can do it proportionately and to a reasonable budget.

You may well be a firefighter, but you sound like a complete child with all this 'PM me if you want to talk to me'. It's like stamping up the stairs and putting a sign on the door saying 'nobody allowed in except Kevin' after your parents have told you to tuck your shirt in.

Asking for an appropriate budget's not an unreasonable demand, and it doesn't deserve all this self righteous sulking.

[DJKillaQueen]

Herrick...maybe you'd be better taking the time to read the thread and peoples posts properly...you might find some of them to be well thought out and better informed than you think.

Huguenot is right. We as taxpayers do have a right to ask if any public service is working to a reasonable budget. The proposed cuts are a suitable foundation for such a debate. Not a single fire service employee has engaged in an informed date about facts and figures on this thread. I've made some attempt to provide data that can be debated in a sensible manner. All we seem to get from those posters are mild rants and hissy fits about how ill-informed we all are?

So no Herrick...I won't be pming you for any fire and rescue data. It's all out there in the public domain anyway, much of it published by the Fire Service itself. Didn't I even post links to some of it earlier in this thread? But you wouldn't know that because you couldn't be bothered to read it. If you had, you would have been in a better position to consider the facts behind some of the points the rest of us have made.

[right-clicking]

Your message box is FULL !!

[herrick]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Herrick...maybe you'd be better taking the time to

> read the thread and peoples posts properly...you

> might find some of them to be well thought out and

> better informed than you think.

>

> Huguenot is right. We as taxpayers do have a right

> to ask if any public service is working to a

> reasonable budget. The proposed cuts are a

> suitable foundation for such a debate. Not a

> single fire service employee has engaged in an

> informed date about facts and figures on this

> thread. I've made some attempt to provide data

> that can be debated in a sensible manner. All we

> seem to get from those posters are mild rants and

> hissy fits about how ill-informed we all are?

>

> So no Herrick...I won't be pming you for any fire

> and rescue data. It's all out there in the public

> domain anyway, much of it published by the Fire

> Service itself. Didn't I even post links to some

> of it earlier in this thread? But you wouldn't

> know that because you couldn't be bothered to read

> it. If you had, you would have been in a better

> position to consider the facts behind some of the

> points the rest of us have made.

after some consideration , your right - i am ranting and in a hissy fit about nothing , and moreover the stats that you guys obtain from the FRS are factual and fair and represent exactly what happens in the real world - frightening assumptions

[Jessie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19981096 not great for Peckham (and elsewhere) never mind 600 people out of jobs

[DJKillaQueen]

There has been no actual final decision made yet. The LFS are considering various options, one of which is closure of some stations and redundancies. It's just that the Union and Media have latched on to the closures proposal and are selling that as a definite. In the BBC article, Boris is the only one telling the whole truth in saying that no decisions have been made yet.

Having said that, any job losses are regrettable and it can be totally understood why those affected will fight tooth and nail to keep those jobs.

The real question is just what kind of fire service cover do we realistically need? As a public service, employing people for the sake of employing people isn't an option anymore (if it ever was).

If we look at precedent.....Over the past ten years (and beyond) the no. of fires has dropped, no of call outs have dropped etc....and the fire service has changed over that decade to reflect that. Every single change has been fought with prediction of death and disaster by the unions but just has not been born out. So the public can be forgiven for not believing those same claims again. It's a bit like the the little boy who cried wolf.....

I don't know if the fire service can sustain the second 8% cut. I think it probably can sustain the first 6% cut. The Dagenham fire (at a recycling plant in the summer) required 200 fire fighters and was the biggest fire in London for years, yet the fire service managed to also maintain full Olympics cover and cover across the rest of London. Perhaps a more enlightening question would be, if that fire happened with a worst case scenario of proposed cuts (so 1000 jobs lost and 25 smaller stations closed) would a safe level of cover have still been possible.

If someone could answer that with facts and figures, then therein might lie a realistic illustration of what level of cut would be managed and at what point it becomes dangerous. Maybe that's something Herrick could provide facts on. I would welcome sensible debate from someone inside the fire service.

[david_carnell]

As an aside, two Government ministers do seem to think that our emergency services need to be able to cope with any scenario no matter how unlikely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19988748

Perhaps this doesn't extend to maintaining fire stations.

[Santerme]

herrick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i only came here to advise , and a lot of what i

> hear is utter narrow minded tripe.what moron

> mentioned the hero bit? im too bored to scroll up

> - pensions issues, anti union issues a- seperate

> thread , etc etc - ladies and gents - for those of

> you with minds like parachutes then feel free to

> pop into local stations and ask about what we do ,

> rather than read some tripe in the sun and daily

> mail etc etc - im here to help for those of you

> that want it , you know where we are - ps i am not

> a union man and i am management so lose that pre

> judgemental tunnel vision , it may hinder you when

> operating your swiss army knife when releasing a

> trapped child :)

> excuse the hasty reply and feel free to PM me with

> any sensible adult questions reference fire and

> rescue capability , anything else i will ignore -

> regards Herrick

Thanks for the offer, but as my brother is one of your senior officers, I can just go and ask him.

We tend to disagree about most things so it will spur an interesting debate over a good wine.

[DJKillaQueen]

And here is exactly why the fire union fail to win the support of the public.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/05/fire-brigades-union-poster-cuts-kill_n_2075529.html?ncid=GEP

Am I alone in thinking it a distasteful campaign slogan?

[BrandNewGuy]

No, you're not alone. It's obnoxious, puerile, utterly irresponsible and wrong. What did they think this would do to their credibility in negotiations?

[Otta]

That is a pretty crude slogan, but it has you talking so it's done it's job.

There are already empty old fire stations all over London, the thought of more closing is scary.

[Marmora Man]

Otta Wrote:

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> That is a pretty crude slogan, but it has you

> talking so it's done it's job.

>

> There are already empty old fire stations all over

> London, the thought of more closing is scary.

Why scary? A local fire station won't protect you from a fire anymore than a local shop protects you from starving.

Good fire prevention measures - such as improved building materials, better design and building regulation, education all do more for us by preventing fires in the first place rather than concentrating on having a team on standby to put fires out.

As has been pointed out at length in this thread the incidence of fires has reduced significantly over recent years through such measures as I've mentioned. The workforce and appliances can, and should, reduce in proportion.