East Dulwich parking survey just hit.

[Wino]

Some strange old school racer type thing? Perhaps a kit car? Never been bitten by What car bug so can't be more specific.

Does look like a metal, deformed member though.

It even has its own little cover to keep it snug.

[snorky]

car covers are usually only used in the UK to hide an untaxed car sadly

[????]

Snorky - don't be an idealiistic idiot - cPZ of ?90 a year!!!!....is that really gonna make someone think about giving up their ?6 a gallon, ?200 road tax, ?600 a year service, ?500+ insurance, ?X000 car.....the point is we don't want the council grabbing money off us to spend on whatever madcapped scheme they have in mind, filling ED with targeted parking attendant, driving out non-local trade (see what happened to Peckham when the 'geniuses' at Southwark town hall made it clear they didn't want people with cars near it) and, as many have pointed out, just shifting the problem a few streets away. Make no mistake this whole idea is about local politicains trying to get there hands on mine and other car owners money....that's what they like, other peoples money....they can buy more paperclips or the whatever waste of monet scgheme is the political flavour of the month

[Bobby P]

Agreed with the above post. Anyone who has problems finding a parking space (on Melbourne/Ashbourne or elsewhere) should think logically for a second. If they do, they will realise that a CPZ doesn't solve the problem, it exacerbates it. Just the most obvious things: there is physically less space to park along your road, as the bays are marked out; the permit cost does not really discourage car ownership (it isn't significant) and so the number of cars does not decrease; local LL shoppers using their cars will most likely have the same permit as you, that still allows them to park on your road. Really all a CPZ brings is extra stress for the local residents with cars, the very people it's nominally supposed to help (attendants mis-ticketing your legally parked vehicle outside your own home, problems with visiting older relatives, suspended bays while you are away and resulting fines).

Anyone who thinks otherwise really ought to listen to those of us who've had the misfortune of living in London with a CPZ. If I knew they really worked in the way we are sold the concept, that they really do ease parking, then I'd possibly vote for one. They don't, never will, and are indeed purely a way of extorting money from us - with the unfortunate side effect of reducing local residents' quality of life. The lack of CPZ in ED is one of its most attractive, community-enhancing features. A little enclave of sanity in an increasingly mean-spirited and unliveable city.

[????]

well said Bobby...and far better articulated than me...it's absolute madness and council sponsored theft

[Huguenot]

Has anyone got any valid stats that show the impact of a controlled parking zone on local trade in a similar urban suburb?

I understand that some people's gut feel is that trade will drop, but there are equally plausible arguments that suggest most shoppers will find different routes to getting there and will spend more time and money in LL when they get there.

Can the local traders who vigorously campaigned against the bus lane and rush hour parking restrictions on LL (because of similar concerns) demonstrate that these two elements actually did damage their business? Or did they (as it appears) actually herald a new Golden Age?

Looking for cold hard figures here rather than just another round of speculation....! ;-)

[Wino]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Has anyone got any valid stats that show the

> impact of a controlled parking zone on local trade

> in a similar urban suburb?

>

> I understand that some people's gut feel is that

> trade will drop, but there are equally plausible

> arguments that suggest most shoppers will find

> different routes to getting there and will spend

> more time and money in LL when they get there.

>

> Can the local traders who vigorously campaigned

> against the bus lane and rush hour parking

> restrictions on LL (because of similar concerns)

> demonstrate that these two elements actually did

> damage their business? Or did they (as it appears)

> actually herald a new Golden Age?

>

> Looking for cold hard figures here rather than

> just another round of speculation....! ;-)

As far as I remember the traders (and residents) fought and won for the rejection of the complete red routing of Lordship Lane. Instead limited time restrictions were brought in (or kept as is?) and appear to work for all concerned.

CPZs tend to have a certain pay and display element to theoretically "help" trade. Obviously those who drive in and are thus on a time limit are less likely to spend more time and money.

Not to belabour an opinion, but I do believe that people would be surprised how little of the parking on their street is from "outsiders." This obviously raises the question that maybe the Lib Dems should instigate a proper, scientific, traffic survey rather than a seemingly random, biased in terms of wording/slant, "survey"?

[Asset]

I know exactly how much parking on my street is from outsiders. Weekends there are 2-3 cars, weekdays completely full. Possible picture evidence to follow....

[kford]

It's the opposite in my street, full on Saturdays, quiet in the week. I'm just off LL too. So I'd be paying for a problem that doesn't exist in patrolled hours.

[LostThePlot]

JBARBER Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The current charge is ?91 per annum. In the survey

> we've asked residents to tell us whether they

> think it should be related to CO2 emissions or

> not.

>

> What do you think?

I think this sounds like a bit of a money making scheme if you;re going to link it to CO2 emissions? Surely parking should be encouraged, as it reduces the CO2 emissions?

Eric

[Wino]

Asset Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I know exactly how much parking on my street is

> from outsiders. Weekends there are 2-3 cars,

> weekdays completely full. Possible picture

> evidence to follow....

Not disputing what you see/say Asset, but none of us know exactly who owns the cars and what their reasons are for parking in our streets. I agree that the pattern on your street would suggest commuter problems, but we can't be sure unless a proper study is undertaken. For example, it could be argued that the busy week/quiet weekend scenario where you are is in part due to residents using their cars at the weekend, rather than during the week when they are left parked all day? It is of course complete speculation as we can only make our own, individual assumptions until we have some hard facts.

[Asset]

I can assure you it is not residents, out of the approx 20 houses only about 5 have a car. The weekday parkers are mainly commuters and employees of the school. The school is a ten minute stroll from the nearest station and also has a bus stop outside the gates. If there was restricted parking it may encourage these car drivers to use public transport instead, or to get a bike.

[Wino]

Fair enough Asset. Can I ask what street (or area) we are talking about?

[dulwichmum]

Lovely Asset, it can be frightfully difficult dropping the darlings at the schools you mention, because they draw children from all over London - not just the Dulwich area, and it can be impossible to do the school run by bus (from Clapham, Barnes or Rosendale Road). Mothers often have multiple schools to drop off at (because these schools have no sibling policy and it difficult to secure places for all of ones munchkins at the same school - they interview dozens of poppets for each place) and then after the school run, we mummies must dash off to our super high powered jobs in the city, or else to Cafe Rouge dans Le Village or or for a Pilates appointement. It is terribly stressful being rich and glamorous you know. I am afraid that you are too harsh referring to us as "mum scum." I consider myself to be completely delightful.

[SeanMacGabhann]

does it really matter if it's residents or not?

The piece of road outside everyones' house is public highway. It don't belong to you. And every one of us who drives has driven outside ED - ergo we have parked outside someone elses gaff...

I really don't like the "they ain't from 'round 'ere" vibe over this parking business

[Asset]

I'm merely pointing out that 95% of the cars parked in my street are cars making unnecessary journeys, surely that's a subject of interest to you Sean? I know perfectly well that anyone can park in the street and nor do I particularly care who does park there (as long as I can get a space).

DM I believe the school runs a coach service for children from the further flung reaches of London - Surrey etc, if more use was made of them the MS - shall we call them - would have more time for their manicures and high flying jobs in t'city.

[SeanMacGabhann]

if they are parking there in the week it sounds like they are using the train station and driving from somewhere far-ish from a train station. But you are correct - they could probably be more savvy in getting there

That said - it would appear that most people on here have more self-interest in mind than simply advising people to avoid unnecessary journeys. IMO of course

[karter]

Evening Hugue,

Now lets see, Look what happened to Forest Hill, a certain degree of cpz and red routes with bus lanes hit that area and what happened? Yes it died off quickly and Sainsburys cashed in. Cpz around Wandsworth, look what happened to Northcote Road, full of white stuff, caffe nero, gourmet burger, fat face basically everything thats coming to ED as the little shopkeepers cant survive ( although there are small businesses still on that road ). To some landlords it would seem wise to follow the phillpark properties method and get the big chains in but I believe ED should remain unique ( even though it has a million *independant* gift shops):-S

Some years ago Southwark council commissioned a formal survey for ED asking if people wanted cpz, the people said NO. Now the local lib dem councillors are conducting their own survey to see what people want before applying for the full formal survey once again if the people say yes in this first round.

After the cpz survey TFL applied for bus lanes going northbound and southbound on LL from 7 am to 7pm 6 days a week for some bizarre reason ( Do you think that would not damage local trade Hugie and whoever thought that one up should be ....) Guess what? Two groups started petitions, then found each other and it amalgamated into one. The traders and residents gathered thousands of signatures opposing the bus lanes ( copies still available somewhere i believe) and southwark heard this and what do we have today, a practical solution, one bus lane going north bound into town from 7am til 10 am and parking restrictions both sides for half an hour only which works.

This is not speculation but hard FACTS as to what's happening and what makes ED so unique, green and suburban Hugie matey.

We do not have the tube station phenonema here where parking would be a nightmare if we did have the tube station so I believe, in this open debate on the subject, cpz should not be an option.

Thank you for listening and good night.:)

[SeanMacGabhann]

The arrival of chains and the ability of Sainsbos to cash in has little to do with parking restrictions or otherwise I would suggest - if people want to go somewhere but are put off by parking restrictions/CPZs/bus lanes etc, does it matter if the shop in question is Fat Face or My Lovely Independant Horse?

Was it really a CPZ that caused Forest Hill's problems? I would argue strongly against

[karter]

The bus lanes and red routes Sean me ol mate.

[SeanMacGabhann]

ditto them too karter. If I understand it correctly bus lanes and red routes deter shoppers? But you also say that it's small shopkeepers who can't compete - so if bigger business moves in (and I assume they check out the lay of the land before investing) why do these same lanes not prove a deterrent?

[Huguenot]

I see what you're saying Karter - but it still seems a bit short on stats.

As you've mentioned, we do now have a bus lane and parking restrictions in place on LL. So when these were introduced, did takings go up or down?

FH doesn't seem a reasonable comparison - I'd be staggered if FH was a destination shopping mecca before the red route. The provision of small local retail services seem more likely ruined by local people driving to Sainsbury for the greater variety, rather than disgruntled FH visitors being unable to park their car having flocked there from Croydon, Clapham and Dartford.

[karter]

Hugue, are you saying that LL is a destination shopping mecca for the people of Croydon, Clapham and Dartford then I think not, its all about local people using local shops and yes people from further afield use the shops too especially if they are shops that sell unique things. (Sean, Sainsbos were encouraged to buy all of those units and cash in on selling flats above, the ONLY big player in FH i believe)

Redroutes and bus lanes in FH certainly changed that area and many shops closed down and I knew some of those people. People use their cars for shopping, not everybody can go by bus ie if they have kids, are disabled or have lots and lots of shopping they use cars, thats why having a facility for parking or a carpark as Peckham has is always needed for these shopping areas. Think about it boys.

[KalamityKel]

So are you saying we now need a car park in ED? Hmmm interesting thought :p

[karter]

yes, i think all of the houses on Ashbourne should be knocked down and the whole street turned into a car park. ( kidding of course )