Fined ?75 for dropping a cigar butt - fair?

[citizenED]

The signs on cigarette packets say "smoking will kill you" They don't stop people smoking. You could put signs on the packets saying, "if you drop a butt, you'll get fined 75 smackers". It won't stop people doing it.

fining people 75 quid might.

[KalamityKel]

Anyone for a Stubbi? I got plenty to share :p

[TillieTrotter]

Some halos shine too brightly on this thread for me. Can you imagine if this fine expands to include any litter. SCENARIO -walking along LL with little one in buggy who, unbeknownst to yourself, lobs her raison packet or organic banana chip onto the ground and along comes the Litter Brigade and slaps you with a ?75.00 fine! That will be OK with y'all will it? Or is it just because someone was disgusting enough to be smoking that it's OK?

[*Bob*]

Too true, Tillie.

This utterly ludicrous thread is a fine example of how poor presentation and follow-up (on the part of Seanmlow) can slowly but surely generate a pompous, holier-than-thou and totally out-of-proportion response. And naturally I'm loving every word of it.

[seanmlow]

Nice to see SOMEONE on her speaks sense, Tillie!

[bignumber5]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some halos shine too brightly on this thread for

> me. Can you imagine if this fine expands to

> include any litter. SCENARIO -walking along LL

> with little one in buggy who, unbeknownst to

> yourself, lobs her raison packet or organic banana

> chip onto the ground and along comes the Litter

> Brigade and slaps you with a ?75.00 fine! That

> will be OK with y'all will it? Or is it just

> because someone was disgusting enough to be

> smoking that it's OK?

oh for god's sake, don't be simple...

From reference.com - littering: Carelessly discarded refuse.

"Carelessly" requires the disregarding of better prior knowledge of appropriate conduct, which I think makes a kiddy dropping a banana thingy, or whatever organic ED yummy-mummy inflicted snack it is that they have, a bit different in intent from pitching a finished smoke on to the pavement because you can't be arsed to walk 10 feet to a bin with an ashtray on top. (Similarly, I reckon genuine accidental droppage may be excused, as I doubt that a community warden who saw you drop your keys would scoop them up and hold them to ransom.)

A child in such a position requires educating about the rights and wrongs, as (it appears) does seanmlow. The difference is that this is to be expected from a kid, and may take a while to hammer the message home. Since he's a smoker, I'm assuming seanmlow is at least 18 and should know better by now.

Are you proposing that smokers be met with the same amount of special consideration that we give small children? Do we let someone throw away rubbish and throw tantrums as long as we can see a pack of fags on the table? Is it a linear pattern? Do really heavy smokers get to shit themselves like babies?

Or is that just silly?

[Moos]

Actually, someone has already been fined because her toddler dropped crisps

Emily The Litter Fiend

Don't jump down my throat, chilluns, just pointing out that it happened....

[TillieTrotter]

Do excuse my simplicity wont you Moos. Maybe my argument was extreme but lets say that you pulled something out of your bag and litter dropped out then, are you going to leg it up the road to catch it? Is that OK or still too simple a scenario for your taste!

[TillieTrotter]

What I'm saying is that these petty laws can and will get out of hand, chewing gum as mentioned, putting litter into an overly full bin and it blowing out etc etc.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

FYI the March issue of Southwark Life states:

"How clean and well-kept an area is can have a big effect on how safe people feel. Southwark's streets are now rated among the cleanest in London, in part thanks to fines for people who drop litter, dump rubbish and abandon cars. Community wardens have issued more than 1,200 fines so far this year, three times as many as the previous year. ...

The council has issued more fines for litter, flytipping and graffiti than any other borough, helping tackle the low level crime that makes areas targets for more serious offences."

There you go, SeanM - you're a criminal!

[bignumber5]

Moos:

that does sound pretty ridiculous, although the text of the article calls into question the actions of parent, who seems convinced that the options are a) leave on floor or b) put back in bag. I've watched the same situation with my sister-in-law with her kid, and she picks it up to put in a bin, telling her child that those ones are not for eating because they've been on the floor. But still, good example of apparent jobsworthiness.

Tillie:

we're all different, but if any litter falls out of my bag when I reach for something, yes, I do pick it up, including giving reasonable chase.

I agree that petty laws can get out of hand, it's just that I don't consider this to be a petty law (as seanmac pointed out, problem identified, awareness raised, no change in behaviour, penalty identified, penalty enforced, wooly libs whinge when stung). Moos' example demonstrates how it can get out of hand, but the case that started it all on the forum, seanmlows cigar, is not out of hand. It's exactly what the law is there for!

For my 2 cents, the issue here is one of snobbery. We, the wooly liberals of ED, seem to think that we are above it all because we drop cigar butts or the contents of our jute bag when we take the kids out in the bugaboo, we are not hoodies maliciously littering in order to stick it to the man... It's the same antisocial behaviour, and that's how law not being influenced by social status (perceived or genuine) works.

[macroban]

1,200 * 6 * ?50 = ?360,000pa

[if "so far" is two months and all collected]

[Moos]

TT, I included the article as an example of an absurdity, which I thought went without saying - of course it's ridiculous to fine the granny of a toddler who drops a food item which will be gone in a day. Actually, I would chase down litter I'd dropped - not sure I'd leap under a bus for it, but within reason.

BN5, quite. I think we're all agreeing that it makes sense to make an effort to clean up after yourself but that we wouldn't expect to be fined for dropping a raisin or two - and yes, I do think that's different from dropping crisp packets or anything which stays on the street or is unpleasant for others to step on. I agree we've all a tendency to cluck at others' crimes and contextualise our own, but isn't that a reasonable rule of thumb?

[bignumber5]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BN5, quite. I think we're all agreeing that it

> makes sense to make an effort to clean up after

> yourself but that we wouldn't expect to be fined

> for dropping a raisin or two - and yes, I do think

> that's different from dropping crisp packets or

> anything which stays on the street or is

> unpleasant for others to step on. I agree we've

> all a tendency to cluck at others' crimes and

> contextualise our own, but isn't that a reasonable

> rule of thumb?

Agreed on all counts, although must reply to the last of your points that everyone doing something doesn't make it ok. Except when I do it, obviously ;-)

[Moos]

Oops, that's not what I meant! Two separate points:

- small, instantly degrading things = not big deal, whether I drop or someone else does

- we all tend to think our crimes are OK and everyone else's appalling

Apols for cloudy prose, and bon nuit.

Moos The Litter Smug