light the blue touch paper...

[mockney piers]

A regular contributor to the forum brought this to my attention

BBC Have Your Say

I was reluctant to bring it up here lest it be (and it is a bit) trollsome of me.

But actually now I look at it, it is an interesting comparison.

Both HYS and EDF produce moments of pure comedy gold, both witting and un (though more intentional wit here methinks) but I'm struck how little room for dialogue or discussion there is on HYS.

Anyway, don't know if I'm provoking debate on fora in general, encouraging some navel gazing or sparking discussion re the BBC's debate about the white working class.

Ooh, I've lots of work to do today you know, hmm cup of tea methinks.

[SeanMacGabhann]

My favourite was Carl in Swindon

"I have never even seen a slave! Enough racial guilt already! "

But then why would anyone in this country see a slave as we have off-shored them to the sweat-shops of china.

I find the whole thing depressing - endless stream of invective and bile. Check this guy out:

"I am a white, straight, married man. I have absolutely no say in anything in this country. I am the bad guy. Apparently I am the sexist, racist opressor responsible for the slave trade, poor womens rights and un-equal pay and if I get divorced I would bet good money on my wife getting favourable treatment in court. Not only voiceless but powerless and discriminated against from all sides!

Unknown Warrior, Bristol, United Kingdom "

Does he sound like a reasonable man to you - or the sort you see spoiling for a fight at any opportunity. When he says he is the bad guy, who exactly is he accusing of labelling him so? And where is the proof? He seems to think that people who aren't white, straight and married man have some kind of power denied him. That'll confuse any black/asian and gay people who look at the positions of power in both government and corporations across the country. I think white, straight married men pretty much run this part of the world

But wait - reason has no place here. Blind prejudice and gut feel and simmering hatred are the order of the day.

sigh..

So many working-class people just do not feel this same stew of resentment. So this isn't about the working class really. It's about a loud rump of them who believe they have a right to everything. One on the radio recently complained that after 4 generations in a council house her youngest son HAD to get a job. She was outraged! All these immigrants comin over here makin us have jobs

[david_carnell]

You have to love the BBC (what with it's liberal bias an' all) for letting these nutters let loose once in a while.

It's funny at first but after a while I find it somewhat scary and depressing that there are so many unenlightened people out there. And they're angry. Really angry. And they'll be voting like the rest of us come the next election. *sigh*

It does tap into the festering class/race divide that occasionally rears its ugly head on these forums though.

I think there are some relevent issues that need addressing that affect the working classes (such as job prospects, housing and education) and perhaps even "white" (Poles? Eskimos? Swedes?) people (national identity and cultural integration) but these aren't all linked except by the bilious prejudice shown by most of the commentators on these BBC boards.

The trouble with HYS is that if you're fairly content with the situation, you are far less likely to bother communicating this - those with a bone to pick, however, are never slow to pipe up.

[SeanMacGabhann]

all true David

For a group without a voice it's pretty hard to open a tabloid paper, listen to a radio phone-in and hear anything BUT the voice of someone hating someone else

As you say some issues exist but trawling through more than a couple of pages of that and you realise it's got nothing to do with rights or anything else. It's raw hatred

And the harking back to pre-immigration times when people was proud etc etc - most of these people would last 10 minutes in the conditions prevelant in the first half of the 20th century much less the victorian era

[snorky]

On ther toilet last night, I was reading Chambers Encyclopedia 1969 yearbook - a one volume summary of the previous year 1968 - The Trade Unions protesting and rioting against immigration policy after a bit of stirring by Enoch Powell does have a bit of resonace still today

[atila the gooner]

I have to say that a lot of white people are beginning to feel more and more marginalised for various reasons. They feel that they get less favourable treatment in respect of benefits, housing, and education. They feel that the people who have recently arrived from places such as eastern europe and africa are given priority over them. They also feel that are strangers in their own land. I know this will not sit comfortably with many forumites but I hear people saying these things when I'm out and about, I'm not saying I agree but understand their ire. It's interesting to note that a lot Turkish Cypriots who have been here since the 50's believe that white English people are discriminated against in respect of the above. Again, I don't agree 100% but I hear this discussed a lot in the Turkish Cypriot community and they believe it to be true.

[SeanMacGabhann]

the key words you use Atila in that post were

"feel" and "believe"

emotions are no substitute for facts in a rational debate. Why do people "feel" that people recently arrived from other countries have priority over them? And priority in what sense?

Hearsay, rumour and malicious lies (which I hear in my own workplace) and the willingness to believe them are the rootcause here, rather than any actual bias.

But let's put it open to the test - we have a broad mix on here - if anyone is aware of any situation where they were genuinely discriminated against let's here it, let's gather the eveidence and let's pool our resources and tackle the institution in question together

[lozzyloz]

Pick any group of people and ask them are you getting a raw deal in the UK and they'll be queuing around the block. As DC points out the content ones tend to keep stum. Even Prince Harry thinks he's hard done by and he's as far from working class as you can get.

I wonder if the true subtext of this is "Do the White working class have a voice?" It seems they think they haven't yet everyone can vote for a politician, subscribe to a particular newspaper and attend like minded community groups etc. Perhaps it's because we don't talk about the WWC as a specific majority group but instead highlight the interests of specific minority groups (which could also be a subset) that they (we?) feel forgotten.

[blinder999]

Isn't it a fact that if you have kids, you go to the top of council housing waiting lists? People arriving from other countries with kids therefore go to the top of the housing list, ahead of people who may have been waiting years for a council flat.

Is it controversial to say that?

Getting leapfrogged in the queue for council housing probably doesn't affect most people on this board, so no wonder we're not that bothered by it.

Similarly, when the government gives free access to our labour markets to (say) Polish builders, it's not us white-collar types whose wages are forced down, it's the native builders who suffer - less work and less money for them.

[atila the gooner]

I will relate an incident which made me feel I'd been treated less favourably than a recent arrivee (if such a word exists) from the african continent. I'd been made redundant and went along to the local job centre like a responsible citizen to sign on. I was told that I wasn't entitled to anything other Job Seekers allowance, becuase I own my own home and my wife works part time. So I couldn't claim housing benefit or income support even though I've got two kids to support and a mortgage to pay. While I was having this one way conversation with a monosylabic advisor a guy sat down at the next desk, who had apparently just arrived from eithee Somalia or Ethiopia, I can't remember which. He was told, via an interpretor that he could have all of these things and more. Now call me picky but he hasn't contributed to the economy, may do in the future, and was being given everything I was not entitled to. I was born here, and I've been working since 1973, so I though that my National Insurance Cons, and the tax I'd paid would be a plus point in this respect. WRONG. So yeah, I felt discriminated against. Not because he was black and I'm white, but because of the injustice of the system. I agree it wasn't the other guys fault, but I felt discriminated against nonetheless and very, very angry. But you can see how some may see that as people black people gaining better treatment than a white person.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't understand "waiting years for a council flat" as a phrase - I mean, I do, sometimes circumstances apply but as a general concept why would one write off several years without hope of finding a job and a place to live?

Getting leapfrogged for council housing doesn't affect most people on this board - but I dare say man of us could easily have been in that position and the reason we didn't is because we had a look around the world, found something interesting and did it - does that make me sound like Norman Tebbit? God I hope not

Polish builders coming over here? Not like English builders going to Germany then. We could write a TV show - call it Auf Whidershen Pet. And although I'm not going to expect any tears over it, white collar jobs are being decimated by off-shoring. I've lost mine twice in the last 5 years to that

And speaking to the English builders I've had round my gaff, none of them want for money are most are doing better than me so....

[Keef]

Coming from Essex, I only realised I was "working class" when I went to Uni. Yet I was amazed at how despised my ethnic group was by all the others. The true middle classes I met all had lovely feelings towards anyone of any other grouping - their own (the beautiful people), of course, but also black, Asian, Irish, eskimo, you name it. But the (English) white working classes were stereo-typed as brutish, coarse, ill-educated bigots. The irony of their prejudice escaped them - and still does. Bob - London

This one actually made me think, yeah you have a point... I could even go so far as to say that reading this thread is proof of his point.

"white working classes were stereo-typed as brutish, coarse, ill-educated bigots"

What, you mean chavs?

[atila the gooner]

I'm not sure the middle class would know what a chav is even if one spat their chewing on the pavement in front of them.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interesting story Atila - and I can only imagine how it felt. But looking at it objectively you haven't just fled from a war torn country in crisis. You have a home (albeit with a mortgage needing paying - you might even have insurance for that)

With your track record in work and the fact that you are an intelligent bloke I dare say you found work fairly quickly and moved on? What chance did the other guy have? If I HAD to choose only ONE of you to give money to I wouldn't see who lived in the country the longest as that big a factor - sorry

As we look back on "the olden days" with fond memories, bear in mind that welfare didn't even exist until relatively recently - You lost your job you got another one or that was IT. And without the cushion of equity in your home should it be required.

[SeanMacGabhann]

How does this thread prove his point - who is calling anyone "brutish, coarse, ill-educated bigots"

[atila the gooner]

Sean, sure I have a home but I had to work to get it and I don't have wealthy parents who helped out. They came here in 1955 with ?5 so I kind of understand the blokes plight, but I was nonetheless angry because I felt betrayed and let down.

[Keef]

Atila, I was discussing that sort of situation with my mum, and Mrs Keef (incredibly liberal person!!!!!), and we all agreed that it isn't really fair.

Our conversation started with a couple of friends of ours who have come over from Australia or South Africa, worked every day for the 2 years they're allowed here, and paid taxes. Then at the end of the 2 years, they've had to go home, and leave the people they have fallen in love with, and a lot of good friends. It is heart breaking.

Compare that to the situation you describe above, and you can see why people get upset!

The big problem is, it's very hard to say something like that without being labelled straight away as some sort of BNP member racist.

I have always been very pro asylem seeker / immigration. However, when I see my friends get sent away, and then through my work get people taking the absolute p!ss, it makes me angry, and I make no apologies for saying that.

Aaanyway, slightly off the original subject.

[Keef]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How does this thread prove his point - who is calling anyone "brutish, coarse, ill-educated bigots"

Er, noone, didn't quite mean it that literally.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But looking at it objectively you haven't just fled from a war torn country in crisis.

It's also very possible that the other guy hadn't either.

[*Bob*]

I claimed income support and housing benefit for a good year and half before contributing a penny in tax.

Come to think of it, I didn't contribute any tax for a few years after that either.

Is that fair?

[blinder999]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't understand "waiting years for a council

> flat" as a phrase - I mean, I do, sometimes

> circumstances apply but as a general concept why

> would one write off several years without hope of

> finding a job and a place to live?

as I understand it, social housing was not set up with the intention of providing exclusively for the unemployed - as the anarcho-kids' banner points out, the average salary compared to the average house price means that you won't be able to rent or buy anywhere if you're a manual labourer - hence the need for social housing.

>

> Getting leapfrogged for council housing doesn't

> affect most people on this board - but I dare say

> man of us could easily have been in that position

> and the reason we didn't is because we had a look

> around the world, found something interesting and

> did it - does that make me sound like Norman

> Tebbit? God I hope not

>

> Polish builders coming over here? Not like English

> builders going to Germany then. We could write a

> TV show - call it Auf Whidershen Pet.

Just because our government is not the only one that allows/has historically allowed a degree of free movement of labour, are you suggesting that working class people currently affected in this country can't complain about it?

> And although

> I'm not going to expect any tears over it, white

> collar jobs are being decimated by off-shoring.

> I've lost mine twice in the last 5 years to that

> And speaking to the English builders I've had

> round my gaff, none of them want for money are

> most are doing better than me so....

Nice one - I've had very good deals from some Poles and some Albanians.

[SeanMacGabhann]

well if he was from Somalia or Ethiopia he either was or was a smart guy getting out

I agree re: Oz/African/US friends having to return home being a Bad Thing - I don't believe anyone should be forced to leave the country. Ditto if I go to any of those countries

[snorky]

I didnt start working 'til I was nearer thirty than twenty - does that mean I wasnt working class ?

[Jah Lush]

No it probably means you were either student or a f**king layabout.

[snorky]

both.

in rotation.

back in the days when student were students and did studenty things, not the apprentice consumers they are these days

[Brendan]

Same thing Jah. Trust me I spent many years being both.